Chicago (IL) - T. Boone Pickens did not look not so green after the LA Times busted him for funding California’s Prop 10. Yesterday, the Wall Street Journal decided they too wanted to dig into the matter and revealed some interesting details.

The proposition, which would offer thousands of dollars worth of rebates to purchasers of natural gas vehicles, is estimated to cost California $9.8 billion over the next 30 years and would be supplied through money paid by taxpayers. The Wall Street Journal states that if the prop passes, then it would lead to the manufacturing of about a million natural gas vehicles for California. If the prop does not pass, then the supporters of natural gas vehicles will have to compete against cleaner alternatives such as electric vehicles - for the $840 million in funds offered under law AB 118.

On the surface, natural gas cars seem alright, but the topic becomes a bit different when these cars are competing against “zero emission” alternatives such as electric cars that are powered utilizing a solar grid.

The greatest issue concerning the funding of natural gas vehicles is not only their questionable benefits when it comes to the reduction of emissions. Additionally, there exists an issue with supply and national security with natural gas vehicles. The Wall Street Journal quoted a California Energy Commission: “When natural gas replaces gasoline, greenhouse gases are reduced by just 20 to 30%. When natural gas is used instead of diesel in trucks, greenhouse gases are reduced just 10 to 20%. If diesel is almost comparable, then it makes more sense to fund that as a stop gap as that infrastructure is already in place.

The article also explains that the benefits to natural gas vehicles over gasoline vehicles have dropped in the past two decades as new combustion engines are being manufactured to be more efficient and cleaner.

The Wall Street Journal claims that Chesapeake Energy CEO, Aubrey McClendon and Pickens have spent a combined $3.7 million to support the proposition. Pickens was previously isolated, and was the only backer of the proposition. Chesapeake Energy is known for being the third-largest overall producer of natural gas in the U.S., so their contribution to getting the proposition passed is no surprise.

Earlier in the week, it was also brought to light that Pickens is testing the waters on the development of natural gas vehicles as well. Clean Energy Fuels, the natural gas distribution founded by Pickens, joined the Perseus fund to invest $160 million into designing, building, and manufacturing natural gas vehicles.

Comparisons?

Aug 14, 2008 03:14     

What the heck does this mean? "When natural gas is used instead of diesel in trucks, greenhouse gases are reduced just 10 to 20%. If diesel is almost comparable...." Do they mean "Almost the same"? or "Almost equal"? The line "Almost comparable" makes no sense at all! :-) Oh, and I just love the weasle-wording "“zero emission” alternatives such as electric cars that are powered utilizing a solar grid." Just what IS this "solar grid"? Most, and I do mean most, of electric vehicles get their power from the electricity grid - Coal/Nuclear/Gas. Solar power, even in sunny parts, is so small as to be inconsequencial. Maybe when the deserts are covered by industrial-scale solar farms, this might change - but what are the environmental costs of this? For now, and for the foreseeable future, Natural Gas remains a viable, low-carbon, fuel alternative for vehicles.

Jimbo report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +6

I thought Pickens wanted only trucks on natural gas

Aug 14, 2008 03:35     

My impression was that Pickens wanted trucks to switch from diesel to natural gas, as we have plentiful domestic natural gas resources to power them. He specifically said he did not want cars on natural gas, despite the fact he owns such a car. Gas, electric, and hybrid gas/electric is the way to go with cars. This is what he said in an interview just a few days ago.
Scott report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +2

Trucks are a good idea.

Aug 14, 2008 06:45     

If the trucking industry would switch over to natural gas produced here in the U.S. then it would greatly reduce our dependance on foreign oil. Even if the reduction in greenhouse gases is only 10% that still helps. As far as infrastructure, it would be minimal. Unlike with cars where every gas station would have to carry natural gas. Truck refill stations are far fewer.
Dr. Marbles report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +3

Energy Independence

Aug 14, 2008 06:46     

ickens is for energy Independence which is not the same as "greenhouse gas" environmentalist. Every car or truck that runs on natural gas, is one less vehicle that we needs imported oil. Also, vehicles that burn natural gas are currently more practical than electric vehicles. Battery technology is still woefully inadequate. We would do better to spend our billions on solar cell development and battery development than this "greenhouse gas" scam. Has anybody considered the total cost of ownership and environmental impact of electric vehicles? What about the battery replacement every 2 or 3 years, if we don't mind a substantial reduction if performance at the end of that period? Let's ignore the fact that the battery replacement "only" cost about $5000, what do we do with all these dead batteries? These alternate energy plans are not well thought out, but then again, the people that envision them don't care. They either have personal agenda's or financial interests at stake!

Tom EE report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +2

Natural Gas or LPG?

Aug 14, 2008 06:58     

I'm not sure what the article is referring to - the gas in gaseous form or the liquid form of natural gas? I hate 'em. They're very slow and the vehicles must be downsized to laughable scale for LPG engines to work efficiently. Will never work in America - the land of SUV's and now...crossover vehicles!
EmKay report abuse vote down vote up Votes: -2

Re: Natural Gas or LPG

Aug 14, 2008 07:27     

Where did you get the idea that LPG is slow and vehicles must be downsized? LPG has a higher octane rating than petrol, is better for the engine and delivers very similar performance. I think your information may a few decades out of date. It could also be time for America to drop it's love affair with SUVs.
John Williams report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +6

"On the surface, natural gas cars seem alright, but...

Aug 14, 2008 07:28     

"On the surface, natural gas cars seem alright, but the topic becomes a bit different when these cars are competing against “zero emission” alternatives such as electric cars that are powered utilizing a solar grid." Better yet, let's build cars that run on magic and happy thoughts, because that's as close to reality as this idea. It took gas being at $4.00 to start thinking about hybrid cars in a serious way. How much of an increase in price is it going to take for us to double the cost of our electricity (which is the premium that will be paid for solar electric over coal) and a $40,000 electric car with $10,000 worth of batteries that might only last five years. Magic and happy thoughts, that's the answer.

therooster report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +7

Americans won't pay more. . .

Aug 14, 2008 08:00     

...for natural gas or electric powered cars just to save the environment. They want the lowest operating cost over the life of the vehicle which includes cost of the vehicle plus the fuel plus cost of maintenance. Everyone is trying to push their agenda. T Boone Pickens has invested heavily in wind and natural gas. Most of the others are tree huggers. If gas was still $1.50 a gallon we wouldn't even be talking about our dependence on foreign oil. We don't care where the oil comes from as long as it's cheap...period!

J. Doe report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +0

we should care

Aug 14, 2008 08:17     

We should care where our gas comes from no matter what the cost. The less we depend on foreign oil, the less they can hold it over our heads. Some claim the war in Iraq is over oil (personally I disagree with this), lessening our depencies on foreign oil would lessen the need to send troops (in theory) over seas.
TomLeeM/BigWarpGuy report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +2

I agree with Dr. Marbles.

Aug 14, 2008 14:15     

Start the ball rolling with natural gas in trucking. It's not the solution for every vehicle but at least it's a start to cut back on foreign oil imports.
Dr. Bot report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +1

Why are you people always so negative to any form of alternitive

Aug 14, 2008 17:53     

I mean no matter what they put on TG daily about Alternitive i always see you people Cut it Down, make retarded clames. 1 Natrual gas contains more BTU than Petrol just like Ethanol. Meaning it takes less to do the same as Petrol. I Am an Ase certified Mechanic. I Have worked on Electric cars and NO it does not cost $10,000 every 5 years for batteries. Hell you can buy a Solar set to charge batteries while you at work and use them to charge your car at the end of the day. Only cost $5,800 for the set. And before you start to complain. Remember most of you Spend $3,000-$6,000 a year on gas alone. As for as NG engines are great I worked on a few doing preventive maintenance that powered generator for Companies that need 24 hour electricity. I wish my landlord would let me put up solar array in the yard, then i would have me an E car as i call them.That wont matter in 1 and 1/2 when i finaly move to the property i bought. Solar OMG it cost to much, No it doesnt. H2O Fuel Cell same rant as solar. Wind OMG environment impact. What is your answer DRILL MORE OIL. Alt. Energy would help us more than just protecting the planet,which i am sorry us little humans can't compete against the Co2 and damage mother nature herself creates.

Pyrosity report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +2

It would seem to me that we should be pushing elect...

Aug 14, 2008 18:22     

It would seem to me that we should be pushing electric motors and funneling these other fuels (natural gas, coal, oil, solar, wind, hydrogen, nuclear, etc.) toward producing the electricity to charge the batteries that power those motors. It seems dense to continually redesign our vehicles and adapt fueling stations for every fuel trend, when we could supersize our power grid and plug everything into it. As cleaner, more efficient fuels come about we just unplug the bad fuels from the grid. Batteries are slightly behind but Tesla motors has shown that an incredible vehicle can be made to operate on batteries, the obvious hurdle is price and that can be substantially lowered by mass production and incentives.

molskin report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +3

What solar grid is that?!?

Aug 14, 2008 20:20     

The article states: "On the surface, natural gas cars seem alright, but the topic becomes a bit different when these cars are competing against “zero emission” alternatives such as electric cars that are powered utilizing a solar grid." I just have one question... what solar grid is that?!?! The one that we might have 50 years from now? We've got an electric grid, but solar contributes a fraction of a percent of the power on it. Coal, natural gas, hydroelectric, and nuclear are what power our electric grid. It ain't powered by solar. So maybe those natural gas powered cars don't seem so bad after all.

Jim Zim report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +4

CNG Hybrid with a turbo?California $9.8 billion over the next 30 years ?

Aug 15, 2008 03:19     

But the problem is the cost and methods to produce and dispose of these batteries, Jemery Clarkson noted it himself were basically trying to kill a gopher where it seems like evertime we close a hole he digs another one. Speaking as a resident of cali hey if 9.8 billion get us off of foreign oil im all for it. Bout time we invested some money into our own economy cause this recession sucks Say what you want about T. Boone Pickens (everybody knows what he did in the 80s)but give him some due. He has repeatldy said (" we cant drill our way out of this one") And yeah he does want the Trucks to switch over to CNG but he has emphasized that can only be part of the solution.

Dcav report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +1

Re:Re: Natural Gas or LPG

Aug 15, 2008 03:24     

I remember a while back the busses out here tried to switch its fleet over to lpg and from what I heard it failed horribly.(kuddos for tryin though) But far as I have seen almost every bus from San Diego to LA is running on CNG
Dcav report abuse vote down vote up Votes: -1

For once I am pretty stumped

Aug 15, 2008 03:45     

I don't know what any of this means. I guess I am not as smart as I once thought
parkside701 report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +0

Electric vehicles may not be that far off.

Aug 15, 2008 07:36     

I read an article about GE pumping huge amounts of money into battery research. All it takes to bring on innovation is a big company with deep pockets like GE to move the tech forward. Until then, I like the natural gas idea for trucking and government vehicles.
Dr. Bot report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +0

Natural Gas

Aug 15, 2008 12:37     

Here in the state of Oregon our govenor who we know is really intelligent as he protected our ex govenor who raped a child for 7 years and didn't even get arrested for it, has banned importation of LNG into Oregon and has tried with the Environmentalist to stop all Natural Gas in Oregon as deadly and dangerous to all. This is why our current Natural Gas prices are going up 40-50% while the nations cost are dropping.

Gary Astorino report abuse vote down vote up Votes: -2

LNG in Oregon

Aug 18, 2008 01:09     

Oh please, everyone knows that liquifying natural gas is ridiculous. Massive amounts of electricity to liquify then transport the gas - it's worse than coal at that point. We need to pay twice as much for electricty, and, wait for it.... use half as much.
jb report abuse vote down vote up Votes: -1

Whaaaa?

Aug 18, 2008 01:34     

"the topic becomes a bit different when these cars are competing against “zero emission” alternatives such as electric cars that are powered utilizing a solar grid." EXCUSE me, but WHAT electric cars and WHAT solar grid are you referring too? Natural Gas cars are here NOW! I've been driving my Honda Civic GX natural gas car for over a year and a half now. It's here NOW. And guess what? Any 'efficiency' developed for conventional gas engines are automatically enjoyed by natural gas vehicles. The conventional gas 4 cyl Honda Civic gets 33MPG. Guess what? The same engine in the Honda Civic GX natural gas car gets 33MPG. The US has HUGE reserves of Natural Gas, so this not only allows us to reduce passenger car greenhouse gases by 30% NOW, it allows us to reduce our overall dependence on foreign sources. You are knocking this because you'd rather give up something we have NOW for something we don't. There is NOT a currently shipping 'electric only' model from any major car manufacturer, and WHERE is this solar grid???

Chris report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +2

Re: solar grid.

Aug 19, 2008 11:18     

Oklahoma gets quite a bit of power from wind. Not as much as coal or Natural gas yet, but it is growing. Washington DC has the greatest potential for wind power of any city in the world. They produce enough hot air to run the planet.
Ralf The Dog report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +1

RE: Solar Grid

Aug 19, 2008 22:54     

Let's take that sentence in context to the whole article which is speaking about a time span of the NEXT THIRTY YEARS...when these technologies will be available.
Samantha Rose report abuse vote down vote up Votes: +2