who say vista competitable has to run all vista feature? it's the minium requirement...
it runs all features in vista basic and that's it.
the aero stuff are in vista home....
if you argue like that...even if the machine can run vista home edition, it's still might not run all features in vista ultimate.
Consumers were told in advance that they can upgrade to basic edition and that's it...
I think this lawsuit is bring by one stupid guy that want to make a quick buck and the lawyer want to make millions by settling....they started the lawsuit and then mail letter to millions of consumers to fish for victums.
May be I should start a law suit against the govment tomorrow then for that they didn't provide enough road for me to go to work without the traffic jams....I am asking for lost wages for time I spend on the road and chances that I might lose my job since I am late....haha
this is stupid.
they should not allow people to have class action lawsuit at all....it should be in case by case basis...and if you lose, you have to pay back court fee for both side.... that will kill off a lot of stupid lawsuits.

I worked in a computer sales department during the vista capable era. I don't see how this is an issue. Aero isn't even featured in vista basic and thats what vista capable systems are stated as being capable of running. I think they set the ram requirements a little low at 512MB but really you would have to have not read or asked about the fine print on this one. and have been an idiot to have bought a $300-400 system at that time and expected all the home premium features after you upgraded.

I guess this group would sue Ford for making a 6 cyl Mustang because it won't go 0 to 60 in under 6 seconds like the V8 will? OMG!!!

Anybody who was breathing real air in 2006 knew that any computer sold before Vista was available would be iffy in support for all the "eye candy" it offered. That was no secret from Microsoft. Besides, if it runs Vista, it runs it. Nowhere on any of the boxes was stated "it runs Vista Ultimate".

Profits are at all time record highs since they have began an attempt to milk the public dry. Forcing the purchase of their apps instead of a sale of the OS and competing in the market with apps.

Marketing hype crapola to generate and shake hard earned dollars from your pocket.

This fake "Games for windows campaign" where they are trying to form an allegiance with game manufactures to basically submit to microfluffs will.

Yeah right ! We care about gamers, oh if you want to play halo 2 or 3 you must purchase vista.

DX10 trickery switching from XP/vista release to vista only. Manufacturing a need for win ME 2.

Forcing the purchase of microfluff apps into the OS. Killing competition every chance they get.

"Microsoft expects $15.9 to $16.1 billion in Q4 revenue"
"Microsoft is anticipating a full fiscal year, ending in June, 2008, with revenues of $58.8 to $59.7 billion, net profits of $23.3 to $23.7 billion dollars"
www.tgdaily.com/content/view/34552/118 owners.

It should be obvious that they sit back with a plan to screw the masses over and over.

And please don't post this "but Gates has done great charity work". Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not the way to do it.

There should be several approved class action lawsuits. Especially for Open Beta Vista purchasers that owned a DVD burning app prior to the forced purchase of the microfluff version.

How about a selection to purchase just the OS. That use to cost 40 to 70. Now it's 199 to 599 because they collect an internal value assigned for the new dvd burning app forced upon all seeking the OS.

It's a crime...

Anyone who buys a PC without research is an idiot. When Vista was released I was managing a computer store. As a Microsoft Partner, we received massive amounts of literature making it very clear what "Vista Compatible" meant. Even the name implies limitations "compatible" as a marketing term is pretty reserved. Blindly buying a system without being "in the know," and then getting upset that you didn't understand the meaning of a manufacturer's certification only shows you gave yourself too much credit. Next time ask the sales associate what it means are look it up yourself. Of course, the sales associate probably won't know either (ahem, Best Buy), but at least then you will have someone to blame other than yourself. Although, it still won't be Microsoft. They have always been quite forward with the definition of the different certification levels for Vista.

I would see that as being more on the part of the computer manufacturers than Microsoft. The manufacturers would be the ones that knew whether or not the computer was capable of running Vista. If Microsoft pushed the computer companies to have it on their pc's even though they were not capable of running Vista then Microsoft would be at fault.

If you buy a $300 PC, don't expect it to be upgradeable. The fact that it even runs Windows Vista is an amazing feat in and of itself. If you want a "decent" PC that will run Premium versions of Windows Vista, expect to pay at least double that at a minimum (and ask for no extra bundled crap-ware with it - that's the biggest reason why namebrand systems are slow).

Before all the Mackie's get on here comparing the various versions of Windows Vista to the single version of Mac OSX, riddle me this Batman: When was the last time you saw a new Mac selling for $300? How about ever?

Is this seriously allowed to be taken to court. On most of those "Vista Capable" computers I never remember seeing "Ultimate or Business or the other version capable" I clearly only saw "Vista Capable". So, I'm guessing this entails this sticker meant meets at least minimum requirement. But, I do agree though, that if you are buying a new computer you should do some research on whether you be an avid computer nerd or an average consumer. Also, if this passes can I sue EA because of Crysis. I mean, they promised all these advanced visuals and said I could play the game if I meet at least those requirements. I know it's not quite the sticker thingy but it's kinda along the same principle. I mean it's not like Microsoft didn't post minimum system specs. And anyway, shouldn't you check beforehand whether or not you can run software on a computer anyhow, minimum system specs are there for a reason. Just Saying that's all.

The game manufacturers that would put on the box the so-called minimum requirements to run the game.

In a similar fashion best buy's across this nation routinely respond to HDTV purchaser that they don't have any specs. But hey it's HDTV the picture is excellent.

Test my theory and notice the number of "HDTV's" that don't have a top resolutions posted or the sales person responds "sorry we don't have that information available".

The problem is when the stance is taken that it's not returnable.

When a company doesn't disclose the true ability to use something then it's is deceptive. This opens the door for the sales person to add his personal lying spin on it.

It creates a false sense to the average consumer that they are in fact making a good selection. And lets face it, we learn most about a product from reading reviews. If you can't find a review then what?

Dagan Henderson - "As a Microsoft Partner, we received massive amounts of literature making it very clear what "Vista Compatible" meant."

You want us to believe you had PC's with prices and so-called NEGATIVE LITERATUTE that clearly showed the PC was overall unusable posted or mounter in front of the products?

NoFingWay !!! And I'm not talking about a chinese dish pal...

I can also assure you these PC's are used as a last minute sales ditch effort to prospective customers.

Pushed out front are the more expensive ones and as the customer says no to the price and all out push to get them to buy something takes place. There is when a consumer the print doesn't contradict the words. This is the problem.

I do agree that consumers need to be more prepared, knowledgeable and most importantly not trusting of the sales people. They seem to be getting slimier and slimier by the day from the bottom of the ladder through upper management.

Dagan Henderson - "Even the name implies limitations "compatible" as a marketing term is pretty reserved."

That's the biggest stretch I've seen posted here in quite some time pal. You clearly need therapy from the sales force mentality.

I guess the past titles of 'IBM PC compatible' really meant to consumers across this nation "You don't have a chance in hell of running an application designed for and IBM PC???

Come on sales guy... dig deeper man...

I bought a Packard Bell laptop, that is Windows Vista Capable.
It came with Windows XP pre-installed.
Nonetheless, it said all over the place that I was entitled to download Vista as soon as it would get released.
The really funny thing is that when I inserted the URL that was in the yellow flyer, I ended up in a page that said that the promotion had already expired.
It is useless to say that I tried it the day I bought the PC, which means the promotion was expired before I could ever use it (impossible)...

Now THAT is a rip-off...

I think the real issue is that the Vista everyone was seeing was at the least the home edition, so when those not in the know saw the Vista capable stick this is what they though it meant. The simple fact is the sticker should of said Vista Basic Capable, or Vista Home Capable, etc…

The little stickers couldn't have said "Vista [Insert Crappy OS Version Here] Capable"?

Waethorn: I hope to *never* see such a Mac. Why would I want to pay for something that allowed me to only run a subset of the new OS's features? Better to save up a little longer and get a machine that meets the minimum specs. Not too difficult considering that a 5 year old Mac can run *everything* in Leopard.

Compare that to someone stuck with Basic on their brand new (at the time) "Vista Capable" system: they don't get to run Aero, which is pretty much the only thing I can recall being heavily hyped by MS. Sure, they should have done their research/asked questions/etc., but it would have been a lot less trouble for MS to make their stickers a little more clear. Unless, of course, they were hoping to jack up sales of less-"capable" machines during the holiday season. But, I'm *sure* that wasn't the case.

The real issue is that today's market is so full of crap that a OS provider can hardly function. Whine, whine... "My 10 year old graphics card is not supported by Vista, MS sucks!" Whine, whine... "My old DOS games don't work in Vista, MS sucks!"

Gargh! I'm tired of it all. Just buy a damned DX10 card, a decent processor and enough RAM if you want to run Vista so bad. If the price is wrong then stick with XP. Or linux for that matter. You won't die if you can't run Vista.

Here's a guideline for all you whiners: Advanced software requires advanced hardware. Deal with it.

Also... I'm fairly sure MS doesn't stick the Vista Capable sticker on ever computer personally. The hardware dealers probably get a box of stickers and a minimum spec.

I think they should have sued the computer companies for labeling it 'Vista capable' when it is not. It is not to MS to determine what they should or shouldn't put that label on. It is up to the computer company. I don't like MS but in this case they are suing the wronger company.

Enlighten is probably either working for the law firm or had join the stupid class that is suing.
it's vista capable.
it's on each computer maker's web site and microsoft's web site what it means.
(vista basic)
I remember even back when I buy from newegg, I saw on their web site what it means by compatable...
The explaination is out there...you are blind if you don't see it.
MS don't make money by selling you the sticker.
It's the computer makers that are pushing their old machine by puting on these stickers.
If you want to sue...go after Dell, HP, Compaq etc.
They are the one puting the sticker on pretending that their machine is better than what it is.
if you Enlighten is a cheap axx that buy a $300
computer with no graphic card, you sure should not be able to run anything...no game, no advance os.
you know what you are getting is a server the we/email/MS office machine and nothing more it can do.
Blame yourself for your cheap-ness and stupid-ness.
America is blaming everyone but themselves.
There is no fool prove on everything they sell.
if you are a retard with IQ of 10 , then yea,
even if the 1 inch sticker said it's vista home compatable, you will still be too stupid to understand...
or else some one that is blind will sue that they can't see the sticker or the sticker is not blind people proof...since they can't feel it...

it's all bull shit.

"Why would I want to pay for something that allowed me to only run a subset of the new OS's features?"

And do you honestly think that everybody needs ActiveDirectory Group Policy support and full hard drive encryption? So how to do explain to someone buying a home computer that they'd have to pay for those features from a business version of Windows, even though they likely wouldn't have a clue what those are in the first place? Likewise, not everyone can afford an expensive Mac (and they are highly overpriced compared to PC's, like it or not).

"Not too difficult considering that a 5 year old Mac can run *everything* in Leopard."

Not very well, it can't. A 5 year old Mac shipped with no more than 512MB of RAM, and that's not enough to be proficient in OSX - even Apple says the same thing. Leopards requirements are in line with Windows Vista's - it'll "run" on 512MB, but not very well, while 1GB is the realistic minimum, and 2GB being recommended. Oh, and running Leopard on any PowerPC is a joke - it's like running Vista Home Premium on a 5-year old Sempron with 512MB of RAM with 64MB utilized for shared SiS integrated video RAM (I fixed a computer like that the other day - "fix", meaning replaced it).

"they don't get to run Aero, which is pretty much the only thing I can recall being heavily hyped by MS"

....or DVD burning (either Data DVD's in the shell, or with DVD Maker and/or Movie Maker), or Movie Maker HD support, or Media Center, or Tablet PC support, or Mobility Center, or Meeting Space, or Scheduled Backup, or included games....

"The hardware dealers probably get a box of stickers and a minimum spec. "

Actually, they have to print their own. Microsoft doesn't make any "Vista Capable", "Windows Vista" (WHQL-certified Premium SYSTEMs don't say "Certifed for", just "Windows Vista" - only hardware components say the words "Certified for"), or any other sticker for manufacturers. Manufacturers have to get the print designs from Microsoft and pay out of their pocket to print them from a 3rd-party. That's kind of worse if you think about it, since they consciously have to decide what is "Vista Capable".

If you can install and run Vista on a computer, it's Vista capable. If your computer lacks a DVD burner, is it Microsoft's fault you can't use the DVD Maker in Vista? If the operating system itself, refuses to install or won't boot, then they have a case. That's it.

On the subject of who to blame, Microsoft is the one being blamed because those stickers are Microsoft's seal of approval. It doesn't matter who printed them. Microsoft gave HP, Dell, and all the rest of them permission to label their PCs as Vista Capable.

In the end, people misunderstood what Vista Capable meant. That's their own fault. If my wife misunderstood the sticker on her Yaris, would we be able to sue when she realized she wasn't getting 39 miles per gallon?

yo - "Enlighten is probably either working for the law firm or had join the stupid class that is suing."

I am involved in neither. And wouldn't think of purchasing that piece of crap win me 2. The only way I'd run it is pirated for a can't miss dx10 game. That day hasn't come and seems far from coming windows 7 aka vienna for me.

Maybe you missed it I said:

"I do agree that consumers need to be more prepared, knowledgeable and most importantly not trusting of the sales people. They seem to be getting slimier and slimier by the day from the bottom of the ladder through upper management."

My point is being TOTALLY fair to all the consumers. And not creating a loophole for slimy sales people to say anything, I'm against deceptive advertising any form of trickery.

yo - "MS don't make money by selling you the sticker."

Great now I see you are a complete MS BlowBoy. Maybe you didn't know this but every PC sold with XP or Vista loaded on them requires a license.

Maybe you didn't know this either BlowBoy, every license used by system builders is purchased and generates revenue for guess who??? microfluff.

Just like the car industry, the computer industry needs people to keep buying systems. Microfluff keeps doubling and tripling their profits and you want to tell us their actions are not related. pfffft you are either on dope or dog food. I can't tell because the symptoms are the same.

yo - "It's the computer makers that are pushing their old machine by puting on these stickers. If you want to sue...go after Dell, HP, Compaq etc. "

Ummm NEWS FLASH... Microfluff printed the damn stickers and told them what the system requirements had to be. Then released an OS that is a complete hog.

Hey instead of printing "Vista Capable" why doesn't the sticker simply say "Vista Basic Only".

"A new PC that carries the Windows Vista Capable PC logo can run Windows Vista. All editions of Windows Vista include innovations in security, reliability, search, and the organization of information. Some features available in the premium editions of Windows Vista—like Windows Aero—might require advanced or additional hardware."

www.microsoft.com/hk/windows/products/windowsvista/buyorupgrade/capable.mspx

LOL "might require" advanced or additional

That's pretty 'F'ing vague when you consider that "might" is equal too a consumer having to get a new processor, video card and memory.

LOL

How about "Up Too" stickers?

Where the max is clearly laid out.

"Microfluff [sic] printed the damn stickers and told them what the system requirements had to be."

Get it through your thick skull: I already said Microsoft doesn't print them! Microsoft gives out the DESIGNS for the stickers to companies that have hardware that passes the Windows HCL/WHQL testing. The company has to log on to the HCL website, download the designs, then take them to a professional printer and print their own, out of their own pocket.

This is from the Windows Quality Online Website at www.microsoft.com/whdc :

"Q. Where can I get the Windows logo stickers?

A. Partners can use the logo specifications and sample artwork to produce compliant logos. Microsoft does not provide stickers and does not endorse any particular sticker manufacturer."

"And do you honestly think that everybody needs ActiveDirectory Group Policy support and full hard drive encryption? So how to do explain to someone buying a home computer that they'd have to pay for those features from a business version of Windows, even though they likely wouldn't have a clue what those are in the first place?"

Not the point. While I likely don't use (or care about) anywhere near the 300 features that Apple stated would be in Leopard, I didn't have to worry about missing out on them later should I decide I *do* want to use them.

"Likewise, not everyone can afford an expensive Mac (and they are highly overpriced compared to PC's, like it or not)."

I do believe I called BS on this before with a previous post of yours. I also asked you to prove it, and I'll ask again. Go ahead and configure a Dell laptop so that it measures up roughly to the baseline MacBook Pro. You'll see just how full of it you are. Post a link if you succeed!

"Not very well, it can't."
Just how well does a 5 year old Windows machine run Vista?

"A 5 year old Mac shipped with no more than 512MB of RAM, and that's not enough to be proficient in OSX - even Apple says the same thing. Leopards requirements are in line with Windows Vista's - it'll "run" on 512MB, but not very well, while 1GB is the realistic minimum, and 2GB being recommended."

Upgrading an older Mac so that Leopard can run decently is not exactly a huge financial burden.

"Oh, and running Leopard on any PowerPC is a joke - it's like running Vista Home Premium on a 5-year old Sempron with 512MB of RAM with 64MB utilized for shared SiS integrated video RAM (I fixed a computer like that the other day - "fix", meaning replaced it)."

You have actual experience running Leopard on such a machine? I've seen users report slight dips in their performance, but certainly nothing they felt made it necessary to get a completely new machine.

"....or DVD burning (either Data DVD's in the shell, or with DVD Maker and/or Movie Maker), or Movie Maker HD support, or Media Center, or Tablet PC support, or Mobility Center, or Meeting Space, or Scheduled Backup, or included games...."

I get the feeling you had more than a passing interest in Vista's release. I'm not sure what your point is here. If I remembered all those features on top of Aero, I would have been *more* pissed off to find out my new "Vista Capable" machine couldn't run the flavor that gave me all those nifty utilities.

"Actually, they have to print their own. Microsoft doesn't make any "Vista Capable", "Windows Vista" (WHQL-certified Premium SYSTEMs don't say "Certifed for", just "Windows Vista" - only hardware components say the words "Certified for"), or any other sticker for manufacturers. Manufacturers have to get the print designs from Microsoft and pay out of their pocket to print them from a 3rd-party. That's kind of worse if you think about it, since they consciously have to decide what is "Vista Capable"."

And how does that exonerate MS from running a program that their own execs admitted was a great disservice to their customers?

"While I likely don't use (or care about) anywhere near the 300 features that Apple stated would be in Leopard, I didn't have to worry about missing out on them later should I decide I *do* want to use them."

Ya, you know, when 20 features are just UI changes in the DVD player, Leopard features really add up to a sizeable point release now don't they....

If you want every feature in Windows Vista that's available, you can buy Windows Vista Ultimate. The number of people that need those features are very slim, since Vista Ultimate is designed for power users that require business networking features (namely ActiveDirectory, because their system is on a Windows Server domain), as well as the consumer multimedia features such as Windows DVD Maker, and Media Center. Otherwise, it's pretty straight-forward - Home Premium for home users, and Business for (duh) business users. Home Basic is for budget systems, which most people aren't buying. If you really want to count features, Vista's actual feature count over XP is several thousand over it's predecessor - many more than Leopard's.

"Go ahead and configure a Dell laptop so that it measures up roughly to the baseline MacBook Pro. You'll see just how full of it you are. Post a link if you succeed!"

And as you asked before, I also mentioned that both are pieces of sh*t. I can build a better custom system for much less (and I do!).

....oh well, if you must....

Dell XPS M1530
Core 2 Duo 2.6Ghz
2GB RAM (dual-channel DDR2-667)
Vista Ultimate
15" Glossy Widescreen LCD
250GB SATA Hard Drive
256MB GeForce 8600M GT
DVD Burner
**Office Home & Student 2007**
**3 Year Warranty***
All other stuff standard
(includes Bluetooth, Intel Wireless N for Centrino compliancy, 10GB of free backup, security software included, etc.)

$2028CDN (since you can't save a link to a completed price sheet, go and price it yourself)

MacBook Pro 15" 2.4GHz (baseline)
Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz
2GB RAM
200GB Hard Drive
GF 8600M GT 256MB
15" Widescreen LCD (NOT glossy)
1 Year warranty
No additional software
All other stuff standard

$2099CDN

So does that crow taste good, or can you still taste that toejam from having your foot in your mouth?

"Upgrading an older Mac so that Leopard can run decently is not exactly a huge financial burden."

Try again. Upgrading a PowerPC Mac is next to impossible now. Upgrading an Intel Mac? Well, sure but they're still less than 2 years old. Likewise, I can easily upgrade ANY PC that's 2 years old that was in the same price range as the early Intel Mac's, even most systems that sold for cheaper.

"You have actual experience running Leopard on such a machine? I've seen users report slight dips in their performance, but certainly nothing they felt made it necessary to get a completely new machine."

If it makes this much of a difference, then upgrading a PowerPC must be pretty much exactly what I had already noted (and it is):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0i3Ccr_M_w

I guess his pants must be on fire too, eh?

"And how does that exonerate MS from running a program that their own execs admitted was a great disservice to their customers?"

Maybe because there are hundreds of thousands of Microsoft partners out there, and they can't watch every single one, even though they feel responsible for the actions of their partners. Likewise, not all of the blame falls on Microsoft partners - your local Best Buy store that hires your zit-faced former paperboy as a part-time employee isn't likely going to go out of their way to train them on new products according to the way Microsoft specifies in their marketing documents. Big box stores survive on volume sales, and most consumers get suckered into buying what's cheap on impulse, rather than getting persuaded to debate whether or not to buy that expensive unit. I rack that up to Microsoft being over confident about their own partners.

Here's a newsflash:

this sticker: http://tinyurl.com/2qg4l2

does NOT equal this sticker: http://tinyurl.com/2p3333

they would typically be put side-by-side like this on a system though (that's what Microsoft partner marketing resources had outlined in the documentation): http://tinyurl.com/2o5lor

If a partner didn't put the proper stickers on, then it's the partner's fault. If the reseller or retailer didn't inform the customer of their meaning, then it's the retailer's fault. If the customer didn't ask what it meant in the first place, then it's the customers fault.

Microsoft made TONS of marketing literature available for partners, resellers, and manufacturers many months before the original Vista Capable program came to fruition.

- able to do things effectively and skilfully, and to achieve results.

Words are important. Marketing people know very well this thing.
MS policy has always been making software that even a baby could use.
Such definitions are addressed to normal people, without much knowledge of technology (HD-Ready, Full-HD, Windows capable...)
If someone reads Vista capable, he may think that device is "able to" run Vista "effectively and skilfully, and to achieve results". The last part of the sentence here is the key of the discussion.
If the PC can't run all the features of Vista, is it still to be considered effectively and skilfully able to run it?

To join the class action lawsuit goto
http://www.gordontilden.com/contact_lawsuit.htm
and fill out the form.
The name of the lawyer handling the case is Jeffery Thomas. Ph.# 206-467-6477

"Such definitions are addressed to normal people, without much knowledge of technology (HD-Ready)"

And how many early "HD-Ready" sets are able to run 1080p, let alone 720p? "HD-Ready" to some manufacturers meant anything higher than 480i (SDTV), which technically means it might only support 480p output, even if it accepts the input of a 720i/p or 1080i/p source.

"If the PC can't run all the features of Vista, is it still to be considered effectively and skilfully able to run it?"

Ok, so lets look at it from this perspective then:

If a computer doesn't have Tablet PC pen & touchscreen hardware to run the Tablet PC features in (ANY) Premium version of Windows Vista, is it then considered not capable of running Windows Vista?

If a computer doesn't have a TV capture card and therefore can't run the DVR features of Media Center in Windows Vista Home Premium/Ultimate, is it then considered not capable of running Windows Vista?

If a computer isn't joined to an Active Directory domain to utilize the Group Policy support in Windows Vista Business, is it then considered not capable of running Windows Vista?

If a computer doesn't ship with a TPM chip to utilize the hardware-level encryption support in Bitlocker for Windows Vista Ultimate, is it then considered not capable of running Windows Vista?

Now, if a computer doesn't have a DirectX9 video card with Pixel Shader support and can't run the Windows Vista Aero effects, is it then considered not capable of running Windows Vista?

"Full-HD" doesn't always mean 1920x1080 resolution - there are plenty of camcorders that use the compressed 1440x1080 resolution (they use a different pixel aspect ratio), that are labelled as "Full-HD".

You're not getting it: regardless of the utility/significance of the listed features, I didn't have to worry about what "edition" to buy to get the features I *did* care about. One version, all the new features.

Went to Dell and Apple's respective sites. Here's what I built to get parity:

Base XPS M1530
Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Processor T7700 (2.4GHz/800Mhz FSB, 4MB Cache)
Genuine Windows Vista® Ultimate Edition
High Resolution, glossy widescreen 15.4 inch LCD(1440x900) & 2MP Camera
Dell Wireless 355 Bluetooth Internal (2.0 Enhanced Data Rate)
Microsoft® Office Basic 2007 - Word, Excel Outlook email [Student version not an option]
3 yr Limited Hardware Warranty with Next Business Day On-Site Service

Price: $2,270.00

Base 15" MacBook Pro
*Glossy* screen (a whole $0 to upgrade. Gosh!)
iWork '08
3 Year AppleCare Protection Plan
250GB SATA HD @ 5400 RPM

Price: $2,477.00

Wow. Huge difference. Safe to say that I have no serving of crow before me.

"And as you asked before, I also mentioned that both are pieces of sh*t. I can build a better custom system for much less (and I do!)."

I guess I need to remind you that when I challenged you to build a system, *you* pointed me to Dell's site instead. I guess you're in the habit of recommending systems you consider POSs? I bet you have a lot of happy customers! Go on, if you make a living from building laptops, show me a system *you* can put together that saves me a buncha money over what Apple offers. I believe your initial claim was "at least 1000 less".

"Try again. Upgrading a PowerPC Mac is next to impossible now."

It took all of 2 minutes for me to find www.smalldog.com with upgrades for PPC-based Macs all the way back to G3 iMacs. Truly, you must be a wondrous IT professional if you call this feat "next to impossible".

"If it makes this much of a difference, then upgrading a PowerPC must be pretty much exactly what I had already noted (and it is):"

Impossible? No, it definitely isn't, as I showed above. YMMV with boot time depending on how you configured your system: I see users complaining about Vista boots on new systems taking upwards of 3 minutes. Secondly, no one is going to buy a new system based on a ~20 second time difference.

"High Resolution, glossy widescreen 15.4 inch LCD(1440x900) & 2MP Camera"

Actually that's wrong. Dell's high-resolution screen does 1680x1050. The standard screen does 1440x900. Nice try though. BTW: Apple doesn't have that option.

"Microsoft® Office Basic 2007 - Word, Excel Outlook email [Student version not an option]"

Again, nice try. Not only is Office Home & Student 2007 an option on every M1530 that I see on both the Canadian and US site, but Basic is not. Again, nice try though.

When I actually price out similar systems from the US sites, this is what I get:

Apple "Baseline" MacBook Pro 15" 2.4GHz
w/ AppleCare & iWork (nowhere close to Office in functionality, but I digress - if I wanted Office on a Mac, it would cost retail price)
$2427 ($50 less than your quote because I'm taking off the amount for the 250GB hard drive upgrade, which is ludicrously priced anyway)

Base Dell XPS M1530
(the fourth one on the page as a starting point)
Add a 2.4GHz CPU
Add Vista Ultimate
Already includes the 1680x1050 glossy screen
Already includes 3GB RAM at a minimum
Already includes 200GB hard drive (this one is 7200RPM whereas the Apple is 5400RPM)
Upgrade video to GF 8600GT from 8400
Change wireless to Intel "Next-Gen N" (it's a 4965AGN chipset - that gives you Intel Centrino compliancy)
Add Office Home & Student 2007
Already includes 3 Year Parts & Labour
Actual price: $2082

So, sorry to say, but you got some black feathers stuck in your teeth.

"I believe your initial claim was "at least 1000 less"."

That was on a MacBook Pro 15" with all of the usual options - ext. warranty, bag, wireless mouse, Office, surge protector, and several component upgrades (CPU, hard drive, RAM, etc.). The price of the MacBook Pro (at the time) was ~$3300, the comparative Dell system with the same specs was $2400, and my price was ~$1999. I know this, because I even built one for myself (which I'm using now), and my cost was

Guess we can add "fond of racial slurs" to your list of "qualities". Right after "has problems with basic concepts like 'parity'".

Oh, let's not forget "Incredibly vain", because you're apparently under the delusion that demonstrating what a blowhard you are is so important, that people will resort to lying: Dell's small-medium business site is where you can configure the system as I did. The idea is to do the minimum to bring the systems in line.

Going your route, you're making additions to the system that can be done cheaper by third parties (particularly in the case of RAM for the MBP). What do you think Dell is loading onto your home system to get you that $500 "Instant Savings", hmm? You think that's out of the goodness of their hearts? And adding extended warranties is a toss-up as far as average Joe is concerned: most people consider that a waste of money.

"That was on a MacBook Pro 15" with all of the usual options..."

And I'll call BS on you now as I did then. The base price for the entry-level MBP at that time was $1,999, the same as now. With the configuration options you have on the site, the only way to jack up the price by $1,400 is to add an external display, hardly a "usual option". I know this because I went through that little exercise and posted my results.

Now, quit dancing around and show the laptop you can build with specs and build quality that blow away Apple's offering at $1,000 less. I guess for that $1,999 you were able to throw in an extended warranty, bag, etc., etc.? Great! I'll buy one!

"Going your route, you're making additions to the system that can be done cheaper by third parties (particularly in the case of RAM for the MBP). "

And yet I didn't - it was all on Dell's site. For the "average Joe" that wants a system built with X amount of RAM, they're not going to go to a 3rd party to get it - they'll either get a decent deal from a PC manufacturer, or get ripped off by Apple.

"And adding extended warranties is a toss-up as far as average Joe is concerned: most people consider that a waste of money."

Tell that to 2 clients of mine that are former Mac people who's Macbooks (not iBooks mind you - *Intel* Macbooks) have already died - one was a harddrive and battery, the other's motherboard fried....Likewise, my brother's Dell notebook died only 1 month after the 1 year warranty expired. And yet my systems include an extended warranty for less money, and it doesn't cost me a cent in overhead.

"And I'll call BS on you now as I did then."

And I proved you wrong now as I did before. I posted that configuration before but you were just too slow to pick up on it. And BTW: it's easy to "jack up" the price an exorbitant amount since Apple overcharges for upgrades - $400 for a 2GB RAM upgrade??!?! I mean, WTF?!? It costs

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/33340/135/

"Vista crash" had less than half the YouTube hits it does now, 'Thorny had no clue what FUD meant, and he completely failed to back up his assertion that Dell notebooks could be configured to near-MBP specs and offer significant savings. So much for proving me wrong back then.

Let's see, I never asserted that Apple's site offers competitively priced upgrades, certainly not on RAM. So, nothing wrong there.

How does the experience of 3 people, at least one of whom obviously *didn't* purchase the extended warranty, disprove my assertion that people generally consider them a waste? Clue: It doesn't.

Dude, your *brother* bought a *Dell*? Instead of getting a system from *you*? Um, cancel my order from before; a guy who couldn't get his own flesh and blood to support his business can't be selling anything I'd want.

Hmm, with exactly 3 system upgrades you can choose for a MBP that would be considered "usual" options, the most you can spend is $500. So, my statement that hitting $1,400 requires more than the usual is correct.

That makes you 0 for 3 on this post alone, 'Thorny, with the added bonus of showing you can't even sell your custom-built crap to your own family. Care to continue?

"Dude, your *brother* bought a *Dell*?"

Yup - before I owned my own business, and before I built computers for a living. And FYI, without my advice - since he lives overseas.

"I never asserted that Apple's site offers competitively priced upgrades, certainly not on RAM"

Those are called "options", not "upgrades". Try a bit harder next time.

"he completely failed to back up his assertion that Dell notebooks could be configured to near-MBP specs and offer significant savings."

I just did, but you won't admit it. Dell is cheaper for systems. Period. Apple overcharges for basic options (RAM, CPU upgrades, hard drives - even on the base models). Keep trying to deny it, but Dell's system runs circles around Apples in specs and performance, and yet it's still $200 cheaper. Add on the basic stuff, and it's a much bigger cost savings still, sorry to say. Your Kung-Fu is not strong!

BTW: Where are the quad-core Mac's? Oooohh...that's right - you have to get the "professional" system for that....

Sorry to say, but I build Core 2 Quad systems for well under $1500CDN (much cheaper than any comparable Mac). EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

Oooooh, but what's the cheapest quad-core Mac? That's right! It's a $2300US PoS with only 2GB of RAM and a 320GB Hard Drive (not even an enterprise-class hard drive either). TEEHEE! It is to laugh!

My "Kung fu" that is. If you have to resort to semantics ("upgrade" vs. "option") then you've truly got nothing.

"I just did" is not the same as doing it back then, when you turned tail and ran. As for doing it now, $200 is not a substantial savings, especially considering the MBP's support of DL DVDs, the multi-touch trackpad, and the iLife suite. So that leaves you with, again, nothing.

"Sorry to say, but I build Core 2 Quad systems for well under $1500CDN (much cheaper than any comparable Mac). EVERY. SINGLE. DAY."

Wow! ALL CAPS!!! I should take you VERY SERIOUSLY. Fine, go ahead and assemble this über-PC and maybe I'll change my mind about being a customer. Of course, I'll want to see comparative benchmarks and a complete spec sheet on the system you're proposing.

"TEEHEE!"?

"If you have to resort to semantics ("upgrade" vs. "option") then you've truly got nothing."

No. I have a cheaper, better computer. Period.

"$200 is not a substantial savings, especially considering the MBP's support of DL DVDs, the multi-touch trackpad, and the iLife suite"

$200 for 3 year old technology, a gimmick, and a software bundle where only 75% of which gets used by

Excellent lawsuit. Sue Microsoft for every penny. We need an SP1 lawsuit against Microsoft for hiding the SP1 Vista WGA in critical update for false and misleading spyware.