I just bought a HD-DVD player for my 360. Someone somewhere will rue this day, I swear it.

Long coming....

it sucks because br supports region code, so unless you only like hollywood crap you are locked out (or will have to keep 2 players or do other tricks). other than that i don't much care (will copy my only hdvd set to br - when necessary;). and all this talk about capacity advantage is a bs - if they can push the movie onto any of them - fine, for a TB hdds either of the standards is a weak backup option (and don't mention multiple layers - anyone buys/burns dl-dvd in significant quantities?)

It great to see some companies finally being decisive!

Check your facts. Last year at CES there was a *Blu-ray* event but no HD-DVD event! NO tables have been turned!

I wasn't expecting them to drop HD-DVD
honestly, I think blueray is going to win this format war... assuming some sort of dual format doesn't come out as a standard

To all you HD DVD Fanboys who wouldn't listen to me when I told them that Blu-ray was much better and would win the war. I Told you so!!!!!

I have both players (PS3, and 360 add on), but this looks like it could be the end of the format war.

>Warner was also reportedly offered monetary incentives to continue to support HD DVD but declined.

What a bizarre way of reporting the fact that Warner was offered, and accepted, *more* from the Blu-ray group. Warner was bought off to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars, and the ones who pay for it will be every person who now has to spend $100s more for a player.

Does it mean we consummer will see the end of price drop on Blue Ray player. Or we have to buy PS3 from Sony??? WB sucks.

Sony is definately going to go broke passing out money to buy support for Blu-Ray as much as they do. I guess since HD DVD is better, like Beta Max was better, that is has to lose?

Nobody can show where Blu-Ray is better. I dare you to show any other reason other than 10% more storage for movies. Go for it, You can't do it.

time for HD to go away.

I believe this will affect but not kill HD-DVD. It'll be a about 1 to 2 years before a clear winner is out. I'm just waiting to see what ace HD-DVD holds(besides the 51 GB over 50 GB bluray can hold).

DVD is still the best format.

Supporting Blu-Ray is absolutely a bad idea. The format costs more (because Blu-Ray requires a separate manufacturing facility) where as HD-DVD uses the same facility as it does for regular DVD's, has had several defects since being released and is of use in only 1 format where as lots of the HD-DVD titles support combo format (this allows for play in both a normal DVD player and an HD-DVD player). Why people are choosing to go with a format that provides less and costs more is well beyond me. Sony is causing the stupid VHS / Beta-Max war all over again in the digital age. I would in no way support Blu-Ray or Sony because of this, way to screw things up for the consumer yet again !! Don't both sides realize they would make more $ if they just let the consumer decide which format to buy...apparently not.

I find it interesting that WB chose to back away from HDDVD so early, there was a huge rush of HD (and BR) player sales over the holidays. Not all the data is in yet.
I find it amusing, though, that blueray players are now "given away" as part of HDTV combo deals. This week's BB ad shows at least 2 combo deals where the Blueray players are "free" when purchased with HDTVs. I think it is still too early to determine a true "winner". This year will certainly be an interesting year for HD formats. I wonder how much WB got for being one-sided. I hope HDDVD recovers, actually. The players are all cheaper -- I can get almost 2 HDDVD players for 1 blueray player. And yes -- I know I'm comparing 1080i vs 1080p. When I have more than 1 TV set, I'd like to have more than one DVD player.
The only way to clearly identify a winner is for ALL studios to publish in both formats for a couple of years. The data will then speak for itself.

Anyone still supporting HD-DVD is an I-D-I-O-T. The format is inferior in so many ways. For one, the maximum storage per layer on HD-DVD is 15GB whereas the maximum storage per layer for Blu-ray is 25GB. Oh, lets not forget that because of new coating on the blu ray, and the angle it's read, it can fit at least twice as many layers per disc as HD-DVD. This extra space makes for more features per movie, better sound, and better picture (less compression). One last thing, the new coating on the bottom of the Bluray disc is so much harder to scratch it's not even funny. I get blu ray through the mail from blockbuster, and have yet to get one with a scratch. My friends hd-dvd's look like they've been over a sanding block! Skip Skip Skip.... Skip Skip Skip...

Finally, put that piece of crap HD-DVD where it belongs - THE DUMPSTER!

Lol.

We've all read the reports of Toshiba buying out Paramount for their 18month HD-DVD exclusivity deal.

And we've no just read that Warner Bros. was offered something similar but declined.

What sources do you site to backup the claim that WB was paid off by Sony? That's a pretty bold allegation to make. Hopefully it's not fueled by some "that must be how it went down" fanboy myopia.

Both formats are in trouble. Neither has exclusive support and high def on demand boxes are making their way into households. To me on-demand seems the much better alternative to spending $1000's of more dollars building another movie collection to which 95% of the movies sit and collect dust. Not to mention the difference between an upconverted standard dvd and a hd hdvd are minimal to the average viewer, defintely not worth the added cost of going exclusive high def. Say no to both formats and stream HD content directly to your hard drive.

Fredo wrote "What sources do you site to backup the claim that WB was paid off by Sony?"

Well, who is being a bit blind now. WB also outright denied (about three different times) that they were going exclusive. So if they say they didn't take anything we are supposed to believe that now. Come on, get real. Me thinks me sees a fanboy of blu and selectively blind proportions.

They failed to mention the real reason Warner Brothers went Blu-ray exclusive.

While there (supposedly) was no bribe to Warner brothers directly, there was a $500 million bribe to Fox to go Blu-Ray.

Warner said they'd stick with HD-DVD and in fact wanted to, but when Fox took the bribe and flipped to Blu-ray Warner decided to follow suit and work towards ending the 'war'.

Note: The end to the 'war' is a bad thing for every potential and current HD consumer out there. The 'war' has driven prices down insanely quickly on this wonderful new technology.

Now, if HD-DVD does die, we'll be stuck with a Sony monopoly on the technology. They hold the patent, they control it. They control the DRM (want a rootkit anyone?), they control the features, region coding, royalties, everything.

Prices will no longer plummet on HD players and media. Sure, they'll go down a bit with quantities of scale, but Sony will get a piece of every player and every disc sold, and they'll get greedy as always and take more and more.

Heck, they have to make up for that $500 million bribe some day.

Honestly I'm just glad to have not one, but two valid HD formats to play on my 133" screen, SD-DVDs just look awful by comparison these days.

Just as I was thinking that getting a HD (either format) system to fill my HDTV would be a way to watch movies full screen like at the movies the Movie makers have switch from 16/9 or 1.78 format to 2.35 about 21/9. So all the new movies even if they come out in HD are going to have bars at the top and bottom to see the whole pictur. And what is the point of having a wide screen when the tops of peoples heads are cut off so that you can see their faces in the super wide format? As it stands now we are going to continue to see the message this film has been formated to fit your screen message with all the new films coming out.

And if they do make TV's come out at 2.35:1 format then Hollywood will go to a 4:1 format. Soon they will be at a 1000:1 aspect just to make people want to go to the movie theaters. In the way back days movies use to be 4:3 then went 16:9 because of TV.

I just can't believe how dence HD DVD fanboys are. HD DVD has lost in about every way and still these losers hold on to hope for HD DVD. Blu-ray won from the get go. HD fanboys just don't understand what the extra space (40% per layer), means. They don't get it, and will never get it. Bottom line, it's the reason blu-ray is better as the extra space translates into less video compression used during Mastering. I know a lot of them have been dupted buy HD DVD's which have been copied to Blu-ray discs, and therefore will be exactly the same in evry way, as a copy is a copy. Blu-ray also has a PCM sound track, More suround sound track in differnet langages, more sub titles, more room for extra features which most people don't care about, and more recording space for the many many millions of people who have computers, and video cameras. Even after you tell the fanboys this they will tell about some retard retort they learned from another HD DVD fanboy that is completely bogus. Take my advise don't even try to get them to understand, they can't. They will hang on even after the ship sinks.

WB said in their address that Toshiba had made them a similar offer to Paramount to keep prodicing HD DVD but they had declined. This is a rumer started by the HD DVD camp taking jabs at WB for dumping HD DVD. WB should never have touch HD DVD to begin with.

That's the word from the BDA. It's funny though to hear the HD DVD camp complaining about bribes when they were pretty alright with it when Paramount took the money. What a bunch of sore losers. That's right, Losers!

I find it amusing when people allege anyone of being a "fanboy of blu and selectively blind proportions" (or something similarly uncoherent) when we're just following released information... using the information to lead us to a conclusion.

Instead, we get, "So if they say they didn't take anything we are supposed to believe that now." That's taking a conclusion and digging for information to support.

While TGDaily comments may be, at times, a bastion of rumors; this falls squarely in the conspiracy theory camp.

It's intellectually dishonest. Who's the fanboy here?

where's the proof that anyone took a bribe? Other than the usual "internet reliable sources".

Quite frankly, I dont give a rats @$$ about which one wins the format war, I just want ONE format. ONE!!

Until you have mass adoption and ALL major studios giving 100% support you still have what amounts to a stalemate. WB going exclusive is a blow but it will be at the very least another year and a half before BD can claim all studios are 100% BD and that will only happen if Paramount to decides to reverse direction and support BD. One could argue that Paramount will stand to lose too much money if they stick with HD-DVD in another year and a half but I would argue that neither format will be massively adopted by then and actually both formats will be headed towards obsoletion due to the growing availabilty of streaming high def content directly to your TV via the internet. I would be willing to bet Toshiba and MS with the help of Paramount/Universal continue to be a huge thorn in the side of the Blu-Ray camp for years to come and actually drag this thing on long enough to seriously cripple Blu-Ray discs mass appeal while they try to capture the "high def direct to tv via internet" market. Microsoft knows they took a huge marketshare of the gaming business from Sony during this console war, and alot had to do with Sony forcing BD on gamers. If MS can now keep at least one major studio from adopting BD and drag this war out, the casual customer is going to continue to be turned off (which alot already are). Sony knows this war is far from over. Fanboys like Shark may think its in the bag but people in the know are smarter than the average fanboy. MS knows it has a golden chance right now to promote it's own interests (streaming HD content directly to your home) while causing serious headaches for BD and it's supporters as long as it keeps at least that one major studio on it's side.

I can't imagine that Microsoft sees more profit potential in streaming HD than in the royalties of HDi shipped with every HD-DVD player. You're essentially describing a situation where M$ is willing to cannibalize sales in a certain emerging market (and destroy the relationship with all their HD-DVD partners) in the hopes of illusory profits from streaming HD.

I suppose it's possible, but I've seen no reliable sources saying that is M$'s strategy.

More than likely, the entire HD-DVD camp (including M$) is regrouping to figure out their strategy in light of WB's decision. This is easily evidenced in the HD-DVD Marketing Group's decision to cancel all media events at CES following WB's defection.

Shark - "HD fanboys just don't understand what the extra space (40% per layer), means"

Please explain why blank dual layered DVD;s didn't sweep the nation then genius and are still barely used by consumers. Hmmm did price play a role? It has 50% greater size but the masses buy and use SINGLE FREAKING LAYERED DISK BY AN EXTREMELY HUGE MARGIN... With your theory, the bigger size should have been won over 2 years ago, since size decides the winner.

shark - "Bottom line, it's the reason blu-ray is better as the extra space translates into less video compression used during Mastering."

Wow!!! then I guess Blu-Ray isn't the future because holo-grapghic disk can do 1 TB and access the data quicker than Blu-Ray. So there you have it, don't invest in either HD format because holo-graph will hold well over 500% more than even Blu-ray. It's a slam dunk right?

Duh!! and I mean Double Freaking DUH!!!

shark - "They will hang on even after the ship sinks."

Hey genius look up the history of Divx, it was and is a sunk ship since inception. But why do I go to the store and see BRAND NEW devices certified in Divx? Some even now upping the ante and supporting divx HD. Sinking ships do sink right?

Look!!! The fact that HD-DVD has been shooting itself in the foot from inception. And the movie industry has remained too greedy is besides the point. Cheaper equaled tech has always had a place in consumers heart domain.

Blu Ray is more expensive in licensing, media and hardware. Yet HD DVD and the movie industry has chosen to not pass their savings to the customer and instead make a killing. While allowing the hardware gap to narrow.

You are a huge liar and grasping at straws to say freaking cam corder users are driving the winner.
"more recording space for the many many millions of people who have computers, and video cameras"

And an extremely small number of people have purchased a blu-ray burner so that makes no sense as well.

Basically you are grasping at straws and talking directly from the your lower half of your torso. The number of play station 3 losers is having a huge impact as well as the greasing of palms from the get go.

However, the sale of movies will help decide. As well as alliances.

What may happen is that since the scale is titling to blu ray, hd-dvd will possibly blossom in the underground. Toshiba has stifled HD DVD writers to the masses to help appease the industry. They will then lift this in a loss and concentrate on making money off of the hardware.

Once they enter scramble dump mode as Divx did, others will pick it up and run with it. It has a place when the cost is right, just as we continue seeing newer speed dvd drives.

Why are 20X drives being sold like hot cakes if everyone is concerned about size?

PS a high def movie can be stored on 2 dual layered disk. That's under $2 for a HD copy vs $15 and up blu-ray write media. Hmmm here's a question would people pay themselves $13 or more per movie copy to perform a physical swap?

shark - "these losers hold on to hope for HD DVD"

You are too funny... they are losers and you're a COMPLETE 100% idiot

Without competition these prices would be the norm as suggested for Blu Ray Spider man 3 "$49.95 (Blu-ray) and the 3-pack will carry a suggested retail price of $38.96 (DVD) and $98.95 (Blu-ray)."
www.tgdaily.com/content/view/33223/102

I'm not a fan boy just a facts boy, you should try it sometime...

Shark - "HD fanboys just don't understand what the extra space (40% per layer), means"

Please explain why blank dual layered DVD;s didn't sweep the nation then genius and are still barely used by consumers. Hmmm did price play a role? It has 50% greater size but the masses buy and use SINGLE FREAKING LAYERED DISK BY AN EXTREMELY HUGE MARGIN... With your theory, the bigger size should have been won over 2 years ago, since size decides the winner.

shark - "Bottom line, it's the reason blu-ray is better as the extra space translates into less video compression used during Mastering."

Wow!!! then I guess Blu-Ray isn't the future because holo-grapghic disk can do 1 TB and access the data quicker than Blu-Ray. So there you have it, don't invest in either HD format because holo-graph will hold well over 500% more than even Blu-ray. It's a slam dunk right?

Duh!! and I mean Double Freaking DUH!!!

shark - "They will hang on even after the ship sinks."

Hey genius look up the history of Divx, it was and is a sunk ship since inception. But why do I go to the store and see BRAND NEW devices certified in Divx? Some even now upping the ante and supporting divx HD. Sinking ships do sink right?

Look!!! The fact that HD-DVD has been shooting itself in the foot from inception. And the movie industry has remained too greedy is besides the point. Cheaper equaled tech has always had a place in consumers heart domain.

Blu Ray is more expensive in licensing, media and hardware. Yet HD DVD and the movie industry has chosen to not pass their savings to the customer and instead make a killing. While allowing the hardware gap to narrow.

You are a huge liar and grasping at straws to say freaking cam corder users are driving the winner.
"more recording space for the many many millions of people who have computers, and video cameras"

And an extremely small number of people have purchased a blu-ray burner so that makes no sense as well.

Basically you are grasping at straws and talking directly from the your lower half of your torso. The number of play station 3 losers is having a huge impact as well as the greasing of palms from the get go.

However, the sale of movies will help decide. As well as alliances.

What may happen is that since the scale is titling to blu ray, hd-dvd will possibly blossom in the underground. Toshiba has stifled HD DVD writers to the masses to help appease the industry. They will then lift this in a loss and concentrate on making money off of the hardware.

Once they enter scramble dump mode as Divx did, others will pick it up and run with it. It has a place when the cost is right, just as we continue seeing newer speed dvd drives.

Why are 20X drives being sold like hot cakes if everyone is concerned about size?

PS a high def movie can be stored on 2 dual layered disk. That's under $2 for a HD copy vs $15 and up blu-ray write media. Hmmm here's a question would people pay themselves $13 or more per movie copy to perform a physical swap?

shark - "these losers hold on to hope for HD DVD"

You are too funny... they are losers and you're a COMPLETE 100% idiot

Without competition these prices would be the norm as suggested for Blu Ray Spider man 3 "$49.95 (Blu-ray) and the 3-pack will carry a suggested retail price of $38.96 (DVD) and $98.95 (Blu-ray)."
www.tgdaily.com/content/view/33223/102

I'm not a fan boy just a facts boy, you should try it sometime...

You may be completely right. Really all I was trying to convey is that the war has not been won contary to what the fanboys shout from the rooftops. I have no idea what MS has planned and maybe they wave the white flag in the HD format war. I very much doubt that is the case. I merely was pointing out that until Sony has the back of ALL major studios and their HD disc sales amount to even 5% of total DVD sales they have come nowhere close to winning anything. Even with full studio support it doesn't guarantee the masses will adopt their technology, especially considering the other alternatives starting to be offered such as on-demand high def. and many people feel upscaled DVD is adequate enough when compared to HD content and it also means that $1000's do not to be re-invested for a HD disc collection. Chances are BOTH formats become obsolete before being adopted by the mainstream. The movie industry is headed in the same direction as the music industry.

There is almost no price difference between BR and HD as for the rest of your arguments, you are truly ignorant.

BR now has control of 70% of all movie releases. That means in a few short months the HD DVD camp won't have any sellable older moviesd to release and vary few of the new releases will be on HD DVD. Anyone with half a brain will chose a format that is releasing the majority of new releases and a viable catalog. Paramount is a whore who will leave HD DVD at the earlyest posible moment, and Microsoft has now distance themselfes from HD DVD at CES. I would say the writing is on the wall.

P. S. these post apply to your b!ow boy friend Snickers. Maybe you two can get a room, and after you're finished post answers together.

shark - "less video compression used during Mastering"

Hey genius, you and your companion explain this one for us...

MP3 actually has a crappy compression compared to other formats. Please explain why NEW DEVICES are being created using mp3. I mean new car stereos, hand held devices etc have been popping up in droves in this crappy compression.

Even MP3 pro has better compression, but some how isn't used by the masses.

Look up how long even MP3 pro has been around and tell us why it or other formats that are much more sound accurate aren't the norm among consumers?

8 January 2008 4:17 GMT - The Financial Times is reporting that Paramount is poised to dump HD DVD following Warner's recent announcement of a move firmly into the Blu-ray camp.

Quoting "people familiar with the situation" the FT suggests that Paramount, and perhaps DreamWorks too, are about to renounce their HD DVD-only release status.

Paramount and DreamWorks have only been in the HD DVD camp since the late summmer - a period of approximately 4 months - since the studios allegedly signed a multi-million dollar deal in their favour to back Toshiba's next gen format.

The rumour suggests that Paramount made sure of a "get-out" clause should Warner, or Universal (the only other major studio releasing films on HD DVD) change sides then they would be able to u-turn on the agreement.

shark - "There is almost no price difference between BR and HD"

Almost??? Really??? what is the true cost of a HD DVD disk and Blu-ray disk then genius?

Post the number for us... And please don't disappear post the actual non store shelved number of the actual disk cost.

shark - "as for the rest of your arguments, you are truly ignorant."

Dude you are clueless... Tell me where my rebut fails then.

ANY CHANCE OF A FACT BASED POST FROM YOU??? ANY?

Try posting facts and answers, those are legit rebuts...

I just can't believe HD-DVD is dying like this, I didn't care who won the format war until I took advantage of a 99$ HD-DVD player. I was not about to spend $300 on a blu-ray player. I pray to got Sony goes broke and never produces another electronic again.

"DVD and HD DVD share the same basic disc structure: back-to-back bonding of two 120mm diameter substrates, each 0.6mm thick. As a result, HD DVD combines advanced capabilities with essential backward compatibility. The HD DVD standard clearly promotes early and cost efficient disc and hardware production, and assures quality, availability, and marketability."

"HD DVD was designed to be the successor to the standard DVD format and is derived from the same underlying technologies. Since all variants except the 3x DVD employ a blue laser with a shorter wavelength, it can store about 3 1/2 times as much data per layer as its predecessor (maximum capacity: 17 GB per layer instead of 4.7 GB per layer). A 51 GB triple-layer spec has been approved, however no movies are currently scheduled for this disc type.[2]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD

This is why combo movies are available for HD DVD and up to the studios to add it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc

And in order to do the same thing for Blu ray they'd have to bond two different types of disk together to make a single disk. Or create a sort of hybird one sided disk where the outer layer is Blu ray and inner layer is old tech. Either way it's a different blu ray disk and MORE manufacturing DUH !!! so cost can't be the same, but since you claim there is almost no difference grass hopper post the true price of an HD DVD disk vs Blu Ray... still waiting...

As for you and your size argument which I have proved sucks...

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/ 20071119150942_Disney_Votes_for_51GB_HD_DVD_Media_Appro val.html

HD DVD triple layer holds 51, so according to your weak theory the studios will come flocking to HD DVD now right genius?

The masses haven't made a choice yet.

High def sales isn't even 10% of what the masses use.

As stated before, you're a complete 100% idiot.

You're claiming victory, over something barely started. This is why your point fails.

Hey, this has happened before. Better tech, the future looking one way only to have the rug pulled from under it.

LVD or laser disk came on to the scene and losers like you was posting victory. A superior format that is sure to be the future. the movie studies backed it, released movies on it.

And look at history, TRY LOOKING AT FACTS... I know it's hard but I think EVEN YOU can do it.

COMPARE THE TOTAL SALES OF LASER DISCS VS. DVD'S

Laser disk sales at the time climb up to roughly 12% and then dissapeared. So I'll state this again because your 70% number means jack. And movie studios back Beta Max over VHS.

LOOK AT FREAKING HISTORY DUDE!!! LOOK, READ, and more importantly try COMPREHENDING...

Who knows what the future holds? You can't look at store shelves and proclaim a winner and no brainer on the future.

Other dumb azzes have done this before with other tech the history is right there before your eyes.

You call my arguments ignorant, and I call your lack of knowledge and consistent desire to remain none factual as ignorant.

The difference between us is I can post FACTS and real questions. Ones that you have NO ANSWER FOR...

If you do then POST THEM and prove where I'm wrong... you have the floor, now make a fool out of my arguments. Because to date I shredded you and your friends (snicker).

NOW TRY POSTING FREAKING ANSWERS and FACTS

1)HD and BD are almost the same for content, resolution (in regular ppl's eyes) and space
(BD just a little more)...no need to go detail here.
2)BD has more companies making device for it
vs only toshiba and sanyo.
Hence more choice of machine.
3)BD has more sales on hardware..
in real life all the PS3 do count since they can sell 1.7 mil in a month rather than that of HD player for a year.
Too bad MS$ didn't include HD to their 360.
(well they didn't make licensing fee for selling more HD content like toshiba.)
4)MS$ can switch to BD anytime.
HD drive is still not yet common in PC, and for 360 is a add-on. they can sell BD add-on as fast as they can ...so for them, who wins is a non issue.
5)There is now only 2 remaining studio using HD and it just didn't look like paramont is going to stay for long. I just don't see how they can keep selling only HD disc when mijority of player out there are BD. they can make a lot more selling BD.
cost of disk and machine of making disc is not really a issue here.
For a $30 movie, $1 or $2 more per blank disc is cheap as long as you can sell an extra $30 movie to another sucker.
As for machine cost.. for major studio..that is chump change. they crank out tens of millions of movie disc..a million dollar machine will pay itself off really fast.
6)all rental in blockbuster are BD only.
shitty if you have a HD player ...got to buy a
$30 movie intead of rental.
I don't see how that $100 you saved by buying a HD player vs a BD player can last long...it's about only 3 HD movie worth.
7)all retail store display 70% BD disc and some like target don't even carry HD...
so there is no way HD can sell more disc...
8)BD is still selling 2:1 to HD..and the ratio just gets wider now as more playstation is sold
vs HD player and more studio switch side.
9) more people are switching to digital broadcast..
so more HDTV sales. you think the salesman is going to push HD or BD player?
10)when I spend $2000 for a 50 " TV or at minium $800 for a 36" above HDTV...would you think
I will save $100 for a player that is going away?
I still have to spend a few hundred on a receiver that is HDMI etc...
most middle class are not as broke as you think.
minium wage people are not HD customers.

to bad..it does look like HD DVD is going away..

there is only a few $99 player that is a old model clear out.
I don't see why the media keep talking about $99 HD DVD players.
in real life , HD players are minium selling at $199 and DB player at $250.
the price different is not really that much.
for a HD movie's price.you can buy a BD that is a better bet. plus you can save money by renting DB dvd rather than HD at blockbluster..

Your example of MP3 as a codec of choice despite being outdated when compared to newer compression technologies is really not a valid counterexample.

"explain this one for us [...] Look up how long even MP3 pro has been around and tell us why it or other formats that are much more sound accurate aren't the norm among consumers?"

The answer is installed base. MP3 gained it's dominant foothold in the market due to it's long lead time compare to any other market entrant. MP3 is virtually universal now. There are better standards, but there is little benefit to encourage moving away from the ubiquitous compatibility of MP3 devices.

This isn't the case for Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD. Neither is has a dominant history in the market. Therefore, the merits of the two standards stand out on their own with equal footing.

That's my take anyway.

I don't know much about the pros and cons of different video codecs and which are supported by HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray. That said, more storage per layer is a big plus for Blu-Ray.

Here's another article... Admittedly, it appears a rumor mill. Nonetheless, it's a rumor that's getting quite a bit of industry journalists to take notice.

http://www.electronista.com/articles/08/01/08/paramount.may.return.to.br/

Hey maybe the xbox 720 will include a blu-ray player?

I can't believe how much poo people post, claiming it’s true.

So much sour grapes, here's a conspiracy theory for ya’ll maybe the hugh price drop was a last ditch effort to get HD-DVD out there, and oh well if it didn't work, we at least got some cash back on these now useless players.

Wow- Enlighten for not being a fanboy you sure know how to rant. I sense a lot of anger, especially when you typed in caps.

As an owner of Piss-Ass-3 and ex-Barf-360 (see not being biased) I'm relieved that this HD war is coming near conclusion.

People can tout how great one format is to the other, but as a gamer one thing that really stand out is Blue Ray's ability play games. Sure you might not think its that great or necessary especially with the current awesome library the 360 has to offer. But in the near future I feel these game developers will require more space as they push the envelope in game design.

Plus Blue Ray sounds so much cooler then HD DVD.. too many syllables.

So in conclusion the added ability for BD to play games is the advantage for developers and gamers alike. All the other stats are just trivial...

And who cares who's wrong or right, there's plenty of websites and forums to get info from. If you can't decipher the facts yourself then you're just a moron.

Be happy for technology.

precious... precious...

In my personal opinion this is kind of of sad. Not because I'm a big fan of HD-DVD but I want prices on the HD movie market to come down and I was starting to feel that hd-dvd was making that happen. Blu-ray on the other hand I have felt for a good while now has been to expensive for any real market success. I have enough of a problem spending 15-25 dollar for a new dvd much less 25-40. I always felt whoever could get players for under a hundred the quickest would be my first purchase and those of the mass market. (yeah I wasn't one of the lucky few who got $99 deal) so where does this really leave us the blu ray people happy the hd dvd people sad and everyone having to wait longer to get to reasonable prices on this stuff.

Personal note I feel that everyone sees 1080p and is like I want that! So Toshibas 1080i players have suffered a lot of undeserved scrutiny. movies are designed to be played at 24 fps and I haven't figured this out. Why making something 24fps to 30 fps vs 60 fps is worth so much more money. roughly 80 to 100 dollars. Maybe somebody can explain that to me. I just feel sometimes to much of a refresh rate is a bad thing (I mean not fast action but some movies smoother isn't better) and I don't think most people would be able to tell the difference anyway. I haven't seen to pictures side by side. Can't get the big electronic stores to set that up for me. Yes I asked

I just want prices to come down and I think this hurts everyone.

Well, I read that if BD wins this "war" then there will be a Sony monopoly...
I'm sorry, but I don't understand why and, above all, what the difference would be if it was HD-DVD the winner.
There has always been a format monopoly: think about CD and DVD. There has always been someone who held a patent on the format used. Where is the difference now?
If HD-DVD will take the place of DVD, then their developer will make a lot of money on rights, too.
IMHO, ending the war soon is the best thing both for industries and for customers.
Mass-production will lower prices on players. Movies, music and software will always cost too much: it's not a question of how much the support costs!

I think everyone, which ever the side of the fence you are on need to realize that the the HD format wars continue to enforce the prediction that all of these companies (BluRay or HD supporters) are actually killing the HD disc format all together. If Microsoft and Toshiba stick around and fight, consumers will be set off by a non-standard format, if they cede to BluRay, then our wonderful friends at Sony will keep the price too high of the players and formats to make the "average" consumer (not us tech geeks) not interested in investing in a format that at the end of the day gives you a slightly sharper picture (remember most folks won't have 1080p or a sweet surround sound system) plus a few extra features on their movies, which most average consumers don't watch anyway. Could this prediction be wrong...maybe...but in my opinion either way both sides killed HD disc format a long time ago when they could not agree on a SINGLE format. By the time this is worked out either price or format confusion will continue to be the factor that sets off the average Joe/Jane from ever allowing HD disc format to really take hold.

Fredo, if you remain in context with the discussion. You'd see that my point in bringing up MP3 was to say that all of these features can be countered with other arguments of how those pluses didn't make a difference in where the market went.

You can't say X will win because of size, when tech is out there greater than what you are pointing too. IE holographics same sized disk or hell D-VHS which can hold 50GB and play 1080P etc

Does that make since, if I tell you the consumers will choose blu ray because of the larger storage size. You turn and point out some other tech that is well over 500% better. Really what is my weak comeback? "Well people want large storage, but not that large" LOL right lol

Seriously, what can shark really respond with? "50 GB is the storage sweet spot, 51 GB triple layer HD is an odd number and 1 TB is just over kill" LOL OMG THIS GUY IS TOO FUNNY.... hahahaha (shark waiting for your response)

You can't point to better compression because there are example of the market still proceeding one way despite the obvious that something else out there is better.

There were better compression out there before the MP3 device boom. So it wasn't too late to change course to something better years ago. In fact you could find songs available online on a couple other formats years ago when peer to peer first boomed.

Just as LVD/LD laser disk roared on the scene. It was the proclaimed future, it had a foothold. There are movies that only exist in that format as well as special features that were never duplicated in dvd. There was one choice and one clear winner, DVD wasn't in the picture. And now look at what happened which and the biggest impact. Laser Video that gained over a 12% market share (more than both HD formats today) or DVD.

My point was too say we still don't know what the future holds. You can't judge the future by store shelves today especially when the market hasn't chosen anything.

5% or less of total dvd high def sales is not staggering or a slam dunk on the high def future.

People thought super-vhs was gonna sweep the nation because of the similarity to VHS already in use. It was competing against laser video, And people like shark was on bulletin boards (showing the age here) posted the slam dunk future.

shmeego - "but as a gamer one thing that really stand out is Blue Ray's ability play games"

shmeego - "So in conclusion the added ability for BD to play games is the advantage for developers and gamers alike. All the other stats are just trivial..."

Playing games has nothing to do with the media it is stored on and the system that it was created for.

Data storage and retrieval for gaming can take place on almost any storage medium.

Blu Ray doesn't have special gaming ability.

Both are Blue Lasered readers and writers.

HD DVD uses a disc structure of the common dvd. this is why combo dick can easily be made a feature that HD DVD should have had standard by all of its partners. That is the bribe they should have made because if people could have easily had a movie collection today that prepared them for the future it would have been a huge plus.

Blu ray uses different disc and can't easily perform a combo disk without performing two one of the two methods described in my other post here.

Games can be played from holo grapghic , hd dvd, blu ray disks as well as SSD, loaded into ROM chips or the usual hard disk etc

I hope this helps, you did say "If you can't decipher the facts yourself then you're just a moron."

Warner Bros.' decision last week to start making movies exclusively for Blu-ray players, rather than HD DVD, triggered an "out" clause in Paramount Pictures' contract with the HD DVD camp. An industry source said there was a significant possibility that Paramount would exercise that clause. It plans to decide within a month.
Executives at CES said it would be unusal for retailers to drop a format so soon after christmas for fear of a flood of returns. I would bet that retailers will wait until Feb. to give everyone the bad news.

Paramount is a Corparation, and as such is required buy law to act in the best interest of it's share holders. With share prices dropping after the WB anouncement, Paramount is compelled by law to protect their share value and their bottom line less be sue buy the share holders. That being said, Paramount will likely wait 30 days before dumping HD DVD for fear of mass product returns. If you made a HD DVD purchase, it would be purdent to return everything immediately.

hark or any other Blew-Ray fanboy

Did you read Dozers comments …

… if HD-DVD does die, we'll be stuck with a Sony monopoly on the technology. They hold the patent, they control it. They control the DRM (want a rootkit anyone?), they control the features, region coding, royalties, everything. … Sony will get a piece of every player and every disc sold, and they'll get greedy as always and take more and more. …


There is something I don’t understand about you Blew-Ray fanboys. You guys all know that Sony is proprietary owner of BR, thus anyone who does anything BR pays royalty to Sony, thus raising cost/prices.

Also, Sony has had a history of DRM, rootkits, region coding and everything else.

Also, initially when BR was being introduced did you know that Sony touted the high security features of BR and mentioned that they have the ability to brick your player if you insert a copied disk. This was around the same time as the rootkit fiasco and got a lot of negative sentiment from consumer so they never mentioned it again. But look it up it was an article here on Toms.

So my questions is, knowing all this why do you fanboys support it? Are you guys that blinded by Sony’s marketing machine that you are willing to give up consumer freedoms (DRM) for a little extra storage space ????

I am not a fanboy I just want to be able to do what ever I want with the products that I purchase legally (I own).

Well, I wont support BR, so good luck to you guys, you will get what you deserve.

Enlighten

The subject here was about HD DVD vs. Blu Ray, everyone knows that games can be stored on any medium. Will my Xbox 360 with its HD-DVD drive be able to play games, ah no. I never proclaimed that Blu Ray has a special ability to play games, again the discussion was Blu Ray vs. HD DVD.

If you read what I said "as a gamer" I felt that was the upperhand Blu Ray had over HD DVD. So everything else to me was trivial.

I still sense alot of frustration from you Enlighten, maybe people would give you more hugs if you wouldn't t always try to prove them wrong.

Since you love to quote people so much here's your line:
Enlighten - "Games can be played from holo grapghic , hd dvd, blu ray disks..." What is holo grapghic? Will that have 80 million layers and hold 50 gazillion tetrabits? I can't wait for the next format war.

Thanks for the great information everyone, critism is key towards greater insight. I will go enjoy my technology now.

shmeego

I can't beleive you continue to support a company that has clearly been miss leading you into believe they had a chance to win the format war. If I were you I'd be pretty pissed that my investment is now worthless. You need to step back and take a deep breath.

it would be a monopoly because Sony is the proprietary owner of Blu-Ray and anything with the Blu-Ray logo on it has to pay royalties to Sony. So if BR wins Sony controlls all the rights, the features, region coding, royalties, everything.

HD-DVD is the only HD medium that is recognized by the DVD Forum and its an open format.

ohh and I forgot to mention, competition is always better for the consumer, it drives prices down and advances technology

so ending the war only benefits the companies involved and not the consumer

I believe the current format war is unique among past format wars.

We can look at competing technologies in the past, but the context and timing surrounding their emergence really makes it impossible to compare one to another in a vacuum. There are just too many other factors as Enlighten alluded to. So history is not necessarily the best predictor in the case of Blu-Ray v. HD-DVD.

In the case of these two, we have to competing technologies that were developed in the same time frame, for the same target audience, to address the same shortcomings in previous standards.

As such, I really do believe you can compare them directly with each other in roughly the same contexts. It is valid to compare their technical attributes (resolution, storage, physical media, etc.). It don't believe it's valid to start talking about other video storage because the circumstances, market factors, and contexts are too different.

On the technical merits, they are almost a wash with pros and cons on each side. Each person will weight the different technical elements differently. I, personally, am leaning towards Blu-Ray for storage/(read: per)layer reasons. But others prefer HD-DVD for factors they personally weigh heavier (e.g. physical disc compatibility with DVD processes.). I think that's where the animosity and "war" comes into it. People tend to disregard and outright dis-respect how other weight these different pro's and con's. They'll make the mistake of claiming opinion as fact.

Then there's the X-Factor... and that's marketing. If we assume the tech specs are a wash for a moment, then we can ask why one format is winning the tide of market opinion as evidenced in sales. On this subject, I (personally) believe that Blu-Ray is obviously winning the marketing battle here as evidenced in disc sales and studio support.

It DID seem a stalemate for a long time. But the market spoke in terms of disc sales, and tide of installed-base and studio support seems to be listening.

It's definitely not over, but HD-DVD doesn't seem as if it can stand to lose even one more battle. HD-DVD has just had most of it's limbs cut off, yet is proudly defiant saying, "It's just a flesh wound. ... I'll bite your head off." It's either going to amount to the greatest comeback ever. Or Toshiba will end up being the thorn in the side of HD progress everyone wishes would just face the music and give up. Honestly, I don't know if Toshiba's financials will allow it to go on like this for another full-year. We'll see.

There is more then one to get paid off. If you read the story on Monday about Sony the PSP will be able to receive BD movies from a Wi Fi conntion. Also in that story is a little sentence that Sony said Blu Ray disks will be able to register from the player. Since the Blu Ray format has not be finalized yet Sony can change it all they want.

We all know what it means to register a software package on a computer (type in the 20 digit code have it call home and get approval etc) well how do they plan to do it on a BD player?

Now for the pay off for the movie studios. How much do you think they get from Blockbuster or other rental sites? How much more could they get if the disk could only be played on one machine? You want to see that movie well go buy a copy since rentals won't register.

That extra 10GB everyone keeps hyping will probably be used in Rootkits and Macrovision DRM schemes.

I can see a day where each disk will come with its own player software and each time you change a disk you will have to reboot the player to load the correct player software for that disk. Kind of like the old consoles where you turned off power changed the cartridge and restarted.

The DVD War Against Consumers
http://www.businessweek.com/te..._spr_home

“Blu-ray, however, goes beyond the AACS, incorporating two other protection mechanisms: The ROM Mark is a cryptographic element overlaid on a "legitimate" disk. If the player doesn't detect the mark, then it won't play the disc.
Even more extreme is a scheme called BD that deals with the problem of what to do when someone cracks the encryption scheme. The players can automatically download new crypto if the old one is broken. But there's an ominous feature buried in this so-called protection mechanism: If a particular brand of player is cryptographically "compromised," the studio can remotely disable all of the affected players. In other words, if some hacker halfway across the globe cracks Sony's software, Sony can shut down my DVD player across the Net.”

And http://www.washingtonpost.com/...02262.html
“Blu-ray discs not only incorporate digital locks far stronger than those in plain old DVDs, they can even include extra layers of security not available in HD-DVD that can, for example, render a movie disc unusable on a player with copy-control circuitry that's been tampered with.”

so enjoy ;)

Kirk said:- I just bought a HD-DVD player for my 360. Someone somewhere will rue this day, I swear it.

Me 2, I had an old player that skips and jumps so just to have something better I just got a HD DVD player for TV viewing when I get an HD ready TV. My advice is to keep yours and look after it. The reason is I remember when video discs first came out and hardly anyone bought them, and at least one company was literally giving away players to tempt people to buy the discs, but still most people wanted the other format that came out at the time, which I think was VHS. Later on there was a period where video discs became popular and if you had a player in good condition it was like having a boxed Dinky Toy or a rare comic. It might not be a rarity in your lifetime but a young relative might someday thank you for leaving it to him.

Hmmm

I haven't purchase HD DVD player, xbox/pc drive, PS3 or blu ray drive yet.

Hmmm

I don't own ANY high def movie or empty/used recordable high def media.

I defy you to find in aq post here where I said I own HD DVD or was a fan boy of it.

I stated facts regarding history and rebut Vs. what was being said.

And shark still has yet to provide an answer for...

"HD-DVD is the only HD medium that is recognized by the DVD Forum and its an open format."

So Toshiba have nothing to gain from HD-DVD winning then? If there are no royalties for them what's in it for them? Royalties are normally quite small anyway, even if its $10 per player that doesn't make a $200 player $500.

I am glad BR is appearing to win, it means I know where to head as a video producer. I will need the extra capacity for single layers discs (10GB is a huge amount) for sure so that is a big bonus for me. ON HD-DVD I would have to go Dual Layer or multiple single layers.

Royalties may go to Sony, I don't care, they will always go to someone somewhere. Sony will have to drop the price of equipment all by themselves if they want to sell stuff because most consumers just won't spend a lot more on HD than they currently spend on SD. This doesn't apply to anyone in this forum, we are talking about the 99.99% of the population that doesn't even know this forum exists and just watch's movies...

Get over it all and move on.

Wow... You are far more bitter and vitriolic than most anyone on this comments thread. You'd be doing your arguments justice if you didn't ride in flaming everyone for their opinion with your own.

Unfortunately, you don't have the facts on your side (except perhaps when it comes to DRM). Go check out the Blu-Ray Disc Association web site (Yes, there's actually a group... Not just Sony) @ http://www.blu-raydisc.com and check out the enormous list of companies within the Board of Directors, Members, and Contributors. These are the companies that are steering the BD standards. Sony is no more a monopolist of BD standards than Toshiba is of HD-DVD. Statements to the contrary are just rumor-mongering by Blu-Ray detractors.

The interesting thing about Blu-Ray's DRM is it's one of the reasons studios have cited for liking Blu-Ray more. I don't necessarily like it. To the extent that Blu-Ray DRM is used or abused, it's anyone's guess. I do know that I've never seen anyone have to reboot their PS3 in order to switch between games and/or BD movies, or load new firmware. But your Hex key handle leads me to believe it's not legitimate viewing you're really interested in.

I do agree that competition is a good thing. That's why I have been disappointed that only Toshiba and LG have any real HD-DVD player offerings. Contrast that to Blu-Ray which has players from Denon, Daewoo, LG, Loewe, Panasonic, Phillips, Samsung, Sharp, Pioneer, Funai/Sylvania, and almost forgot... Sony.

So please, take your venom and your coy use of the HDDVD hex key somewhere else. Perhaps a forum of disgruntled Sony haters, HD-DVD early adopters, and other griefers. Nothing detracts from what intellectual merit your arguments had than starting out by referring Blu-Ray and it's supporters as "Blew-Ray". Enjoy stewing in your own hate and vitriol while the rest of us debate this topic on a less immature-angst-ridden level.

shmeego - "The subject here was about HD DVD vs. Blu Ray"

Wow Thanks for reminding me noe lets try READING AND COMPREHENDING WHAT YOU WROTE EVEN JUST NOW !!

shmeego - "I never proclaimed that Blu Ray has a special ability to play games, again the discussion was Blu Ray vs. HD DVD."

Vs.

shmeego - "but as a gamer one thing that really stand out is Blue Ray's ability play games"

shmeego - "So in conclusion the added ability for BD to play games is the advantage for developers and gamers alike. All the other stats are just trivial..."

LOL am I reading what YOU wrote correctly. Hey why don't you try reading it...

"I still sense alot of frustration from you Enlighten, maybe people would give you more hugs if you wouldn't t always try to prove them wrong."

#1 I don't need hugs LOL just facts
#2 This a forum to debate and exchange dialog. giving out hugs doesn't do that
#3 Not frustrated, just trying to understand

As you so eagerly stated this was HD DVD vs blu ray discussion.

So if you mean Xbox 360 Vs. PS3 then it was you leaving the discussion. Again one of your qoutes was "but as a gamer one thing that really stand out is Blue Ray's ability play games".

Blu Ray Has NO ability to play game PS3 can do both

As there was talk of XBOX creating an HD DVD all in one gaming system (far too late) this still wouldn't tilt the scales.

As I stated before, people are claiming a clear winner and blu ray is where things will stop.

I never stated in the postings here that HD DVD has a chance to surpass blu ray. I simply said the future isn't set.

And claiming clear victory and a future standard in a market where over 95% of the consumers haven't made a choice alone says that the future is still wide open.

See I'm trying to get shark and snickers to dig much deeper.

First of all we all must read and be up on what's coming down the pike. And I'll take this time to explain something to shmeego who was sarcastic in saying "What is holo grapghic? Will that have 80 million layers and hold 50 gazillion tetrabits? I can't wait for the next format war."

Well shmeego and anyone that didn't know I'll touch on a few very near techs

Holographic isn't as far off as you think.

Protein-coated disc using Bacteriorhodopsin. They have working prototypes developed by Harvard has displayed WORKING prototypes back in 2006 called
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein-coated_disc

Ultra Density Optical up to 500 GB
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_Density_Optical

3D optical data storage - but that's way off
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_optical_data_storage
Try reading...

This is my point in saying SIZE is what will win this. Here also is news for some.

XHD and Ultra HD has been in discussion for years and we may have a standard set higher than 1080P.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_High_Definition_Video

The limit for us using better resolution was a solid storage medium to hold massive amounts of data.

And Since broadcast tv will be limited just as 240 line remained the norm for far too long. And on demand video will be limited as well because of bandwidth issues to service all customers. Players will continue to be the delivery method for consumers and the higher def. Leaving a visual imbalance or gap similar too today where we can have 1080P movies and 720P broad cast. And 720 to 1080i cable/sat.

We already have XHD cable that have a bandwidth capacity that well exceeds 1080P if needed.

Sony has had discussion regarding 1600P as a more feasible standard since newer TV's/monitors will be doing 1600P.

In fact gateways XHD3000 upconverts all video INCLUDING 1080P to 1600P.

And with integrated Silicon Optix Realta® HQV® video processor going in full force we may soon have future high def players upconverting all movies to 1600P. Just as upconverting DVD came before high def hardware.

That was my point in bringing up LD/laser Disk history. Rising, Rising, Rising and then BAM!! gone...

If you read what I wrote and consider less than 5% has yet to make a high def decision. In fact they have made a decision most are choosing upconverted dvd over either high def format.

Look at the sales for upconvert dvd player sand compare it to blu ray plpayers. There is your current winner for the consumer now. Because in all honesty only special effects movies need to be shown in HD, I don't need to see Nicholas Cages 'George of the Jungle' looks any clearer.

Hi 09 F9,
I agree with what you said. However, it seems you're claiming that hd-dvd is a format made by some no-profit organization. I hope for Toshiba & co. that they have some patents and TM on it, too.
I fully disagree when you talk about the benefit of the competition regarding a storage medium. I think is exactly the contrary: when this absurd "war" will end, then competition will start: key word is STANDARD. When the medium is standardised, many people won't fear for spending money in possibly-useless devices, and they will start buying them. Vendors will produce more HD-equipment than SD-ones. Prices will lower. Sony isn't the only BD-player maker. Competition will start.

Wow … for someone that thinks that they know all the facts you are a bit misguided. Yes, I know of the Blew-Ray Disc Association. And although its members consists of backers/investors/developers of the Blew-Ray technology, it is Sony who is the proprietor of the Blew-Ray brand and thus the only one who will receive royalties for anything that has a Blew-Ray logo on it. And DRM is the MAIN reason movie studios backed Blew-Ray.

Sony owns publishing and distribution houses. That's how they garnered the so-called support in the first place. Sony owns the grass, the cows, the milk factory and the rights to sell the milk... understand? They are two acquisitions away from an anti-trust lawsuit in the movie biz. That's how they are monopolizing.

And I have no problem with the Sony brand, I own a 42” XBR, CyberShot, PSX, PS2 and will purchase PS3 when better games come out. I think Sony produces great products including Blew-Ray. As a matter of fact I don’t even own an HD-DVD player. But that’s not what I’m bitter at.

I am bitter, because I do think that Blew-Ray will win and it sucks for us the consumer. And not because I want to do anything illegal as you state but because I want to be able to PURCHASE a movie, copy it to my hard drive and stream it to my xbox360 LEGALLY, as I do now with DVD’s. And I believe that as a paying consumer that is my right. But if it was up to Sony and its DRM they would not let you do that. And that is why I am a supporter of HD-DVD.

As a matter of fact I think I will go out this weekend and buy an HD-DVD to show my support.

I don't care where the royalites go, like you said someone always has to got paid. What bothers me is a company being in full controll of a product with no competition.

HD-DVD is an open format, Toshiba does not own the brand, thus they collect no royalties for any product having the HD-DVD logo on it. And they can NOT license out the HD-DVD brand. So what do they have to gain? Brand recognition. If HD-DVD wins, they (Toshiba) will be recognized as the market leader in the product.


http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/506hook/

The largest variable cost appears to be in the intellectual property (IP). The Blu-ray disc (BD) format uses IP owned by core members of the BD Association, plus the interactive portions known as BD Java (BD-J), which is owned by Sun Microsystems. A published report has placed the price of the royalty package at around $30 per BD player. By comparison, the royalties for HD DVD players have been pegged at around $12 per unit. In addition, the iHD system included in the cost of HD DVD software is owned by Microsoft and will be included within their new Vista operating system for PCs with HD DVD drives.

Steve,
Read the post above that I replied to Fredo. It explains a little more about royalties and IP ownership.

And regarding competition, I do see your point and its a valid one. But I think if this war continues for at least through this holiday season you will see some outrageous prices for these players. Toshiba must feel that they have their backs against the wall and the only way keep from loosing more ground is to drop prices. Just wait and see I think $99 player will be standard for their lower spec units.

The Facts are this, Blu-ray won the war like I said they would, and you will see that Paramount will dump HD DVD as soon as the risk of mass returns is past, (aprox. Jan 31, 2008). HBO Just anounced today that they are dumping HD DVD as well so Paramount is the only Studio left without a vested interest. Universal has to stay until the end as they are owned by GE who is part owner and developer of HD DVD. You say I don't know what I'm talking about but for those who took my advise their investment is safe and for those who listened to you, a person who is promoting a product he dosen't even own, are all fucked because they listened to a stupid asshole like you. Everyone should join me in telling you to shut the fuck up. You've miss informed enough people with your morronic rantings.

It's over, get over it.

I just wanted to throw my suport behind what you've writen. Cheers,

Finally, some intelligent points.

You've got to be the dumbest Az hole I've seen on this site since inception. As I just stated dual layered DVD's are being used for movies and an extremely HUGE number of consumers choose by price and afforability.

Consumers are using single layered today and even DOWNGRADING YES !!! AZ HOLE DOWN GRADING the quality of the film to force a fit to a single layered disk.

NOW EXPLAIN WHY THAT IS, IF YOU CLAIM THE MASSES NEED THE EXTRA SPACE?

WHY DONT THE MASSES OF NONE HIGH DEF SPEND DOUBLE TO QUADRUPLE THE AMOUNT AND GET DUAL LAYER?

WHY??? WHY ??? WHY??? ANY CHANCE OF ANSWERS LOSER?

try read what I said what toshiba might do in a spiteful situation.

Dumb HD DVD tech just as divx was dumped when it failed to sweep the nation.

How would did people get f'cked following me? I made no suggestions on what people should do.

I did state what could be done because there is software to burn VC-1 files to DVD. As well as other high def formats.

And if the masses have chosen to back up movies on the cheapest way possible. What does that mean they'll do when faced with a cost much greater than what they are CURRENTLY doing for standard DVD's today? idiot time two to the 15th freaking power

You post NO ANSWERS LOSER NONE ZILCH regarding what the discussion was on and the questions I pose. Instead you keep posting the same rhetoric about the movie studios moves.

Let me re-state something...

"HD DVD was designed to be the successor to the standard DVD format and is derived from the same underlying technologies. Since all variants except the 3x DVD employ a blue laser with a shorter wavelength, it can store about 3 1/2 times as much data per layer as its predecessor (maximum capacity: 17 GB per layer instead of 4.7 GB per layer). A 51 GB triple-layer spec has been approved, however no movies are currently scheduled for this disc type.[2]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD
--------------------------------------------
Try following this:

A standard dvd drive and an hd dvd drive differs only in the laser used. Which allows data to be stored on the same disk in a greater capacity.

So what was my point in saying, technically toshiba or any other company could and will create rock bottom high def drive for so called data storage. Why because it's a no brainer. All of the current crop of companies companies will be unleashed to start competing making cheap high def/greater storage drives because all they need is access to the blue laser.

Do you understand what this means?

Lets back up and review the history. Cheap HD DVD writers are not and haven't been on store shelves. Why? because it was to appease their partners to choose their format for future movies. As stated above it's much cheaper and much easier to produce a player and writer for the format because internally its basically dropping in a blue laser.

And they will also choose this because they'll be no royalties due for data drives as sony will continue to manipulate blu ray writers and the companies that produce them.

If every studios turns their back and HD DVD sinks what will we have. An influx of cheap High def DVD writers for data storage. With those dives you can write in any format that the consumer wants too. VC-1, H.264, divx HD, MPEG-HD endless, just as people rent movies in one format, but burn a divx copy on similar structured dvd's. The same as people copying music raw cd to mp's and storing it on cheap cdr's.

Now without an influence by the studios there is no longer a need to require the writer to use different coating. Remember, the dvd disk media is the same structure.

Technically, just as most people today store copied music on cheap data cd's that last a much shorter time than the better layered music cd's. This same theory applies to movies.

This means that consumers can have a drive to "quote on quote" back up their 17 gigs of ANY data on standard 23 cent single layered dvd's. Or they couple purchase blank DVD-DL disks and hold close to 25 gigs.

Is this still going over your head?

Do you think sony/blu ray media will match this?

shark you stated there is no difference in the cost of media between blu ray and hd dvd. I garantee you that it'll be an extremely long time before a consumer will be able to purchase blu ray media for under a $1.

This is the reason that I haven't and wont shelve out dollars for either. And to shark your complete azz hole.

I guarantee my method is much more cost effective all you need is a pc dual format or blu ray reader. Than $600 or much more for blu ray player and or a pc reader/writer. And $17 to $21 write media.

So read and respond anyone. Because things are shaking out exactly as I thought it would. HD DVD caused the lowering of the expect blu ray price through competition. Then will have revenge in the under ground just as divx has... Divx as stated before was a sunken tech ship like hd dvd, but some how in 2006/7 and 8 tech is being created to play it.

With Blu ray taking over the market, will sony increase blu ray prices of their players? Sony is always the most expensive remember when it was $1,000. LOL

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course. If you hold Sony in suspicion for Blu-ray based on their past DRM shenanigans, more power to you.

But when people begin to blur the lines and cite opinion as fact, and do so while belittle and flaming others in the process; sorry, you lose your credibility.

09F9's first argument was DRM (mostly true, lots of conjecture). His second was Sony's "monopoly" on Blu-Ray and how it was the proprietary owner (outright false according to any credible source. Prove us wrong... please). Finally, it was lack of competition for the consumer market (proven wrong when comparing companies making the consumer equipment).

I don't know all the facts nor the future. I just present sources cited that I've read and add my own opinion on the matter. Nothing more... nothing less. However, I find it interesting when people burst on the thread guns blazing only to back peddle and shape up their act when they realize there might actually be a debate going. It's ironic when they then claim other people are claiming to "know it all" when challenged on their own recent pedantic rant.

And this really goes to both sides. Stop the flaming back and forth. Who cares. They won't be watching movies at your house!

If HD-DVD wins, I'll buy one. If Blu-Ray wins, I'll buy one. I don't like HD-DVD as much, but it's still better than standard-def... and years from now there will be an even newer standard(s) surpassing both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD.

In the meantime, I'm encouraged to hear that 70% of new HD discs and movie content is exclusively on Blu-Ray.

Word has it Paramount will be announcing it is switching to blu-ray next week. Looks like this marks the end of HD-DVD. Considering I only spent $179 for BD and HD-DVD I don't really feel that bad (got PS3 free with TV, already had a 360 so whats 179 bucks).

You said you gave consumers what they wanted. Which consumers are you talking about? The blu-boys in forums? You didn't give us what we wanted. You gave PS3 gamers what they wanted. WB, you gave them a hollow victory in the format war because their beloved gameless overpriced PS3 is in last place in the video game console wars. Yet, you alienated those who are true movie lovers and purchasers. As soon as PS3 games come out such as Devil May Cry, Grand Theft Auto, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Turismo or Final Fantasy, these people will stop buying your movies. Why? To PS3 gamers blu-ray discs are substitutes. There's no money for both in the majority of them. You have screwed your own future over with high definition media discs.

they don't have a large market share together, compared to other formats firstly. secondly i'm predicting in about a year or two we see new disc technology far superior to both of these formats and once again we will see a switch to new media.