PS3 just eclipsed 6 million units acording to VGChartz, NPD has numbers in excess of 5 million through October.

As much as the HD DVD Promotional group will tell you they don't they still play BluRay movies, and people still watch movies on their PS3s.

thats just in the US right?

Everytime they accomplish something insignificant they announce it like its a big deal. Hey look! we have 750,000 players vs 3.7 million Blu-Ray players. Just go away MS and Tosh...Nobody believes in your format anymore.

3.7 Million? According to Wikipedia's source, the NPD among others, PS3 world-wide sales have reached 4.5 Million as of September 2007. Factor in the price drop of the PS3, and we're easily looking at 5-6 million sold to include the Holiday 2007 sales. So, yeah 750k doesn't seem so mighty now does it? And, just wait till we see a Blu Ray stand alone player for $199--game over for HD-DVD.

It's not the number of players sold, it's the stupid movie houses that went BR only. There are far more titles available right now on BR. After these sales figures, watch how fast the movie houses open up too HD-DVD.

haha, that line should have been at the opening of the article, like a disclaimer!

Blu ray is kicking butt in the high deff format war, but in case you shelled out the couple hundred at a walmart somewhere to get a hd dvd player, here is some seemingly good news that is actually worthless if you see the whole picture.

the end.

can I write for tg daily now?

(haha)

so many companies invested so much money in those crappy overpriced BD players and now nobody wants them :) lol

God you're dense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD+ Read up.

Damn PS3 ;(

That's a little pathetic. I *do* use my ps3 to watch blu ray too.. Just like I used my ps2 to watch DVD way back when.

Has them at 5.3 mill. This is from Sony's recent finical fillings which I trust more the retailers.

The PS3 seems like a big factor now but when the war is over the PS3 will most likely be a tinny fraction of the sale and I don't see it being a big player in the war. I think that's why the Sony execs are calling it a stalemate already.

you cant compare at all with those kind of "sales numbers"... Those who bought HDDVD, they buy it because they are really USING it; those who bought blu-ray through PS3, it's in it...

The sources of figures are so different, I dont see either side creditable. It's like telling me how popular HDMI is, and how many people actually are using it. I can even argue since the blu-ray players are tied to a gamer's market, a release of a particular movie might interest them while those who bought HDDVD are more towards movie-enthusiast, potentially buying multiple HD movies or tv series instead of one.

With those figures from PS3-tired blu-ray sales, I dont know how many of them will actually watch movies on it, at least I know those who bought HDDVD players did give a real thought about that.

I'm NOT theorizing who's winning or losing. I just think those figures are insufficient to reflect your who's-winning-theories.

I'm sorry but to the average family, PS3 sales and movie are meaningless. People buy 50-100 movie players, and there will not be a stand alone home Blueray player that cheap for a while. Once the government mandated digital TV switch officially gets rolling its gonna slam this format war to a halt within 6 months. I hate to say it, but the adult film industry is backing HD-DVD, and it had a major impact in the Betamax vs VHS war. We will see if this proves true once again as adopters find out they cannot get their pr0n from Blueray discs ;-).

Why? Blu-Ray stores more space. So what. I dont need more space. Blu-Ray is the more "advanced" technology. So what, they both use the exactly same movie codec (which means exact same quality). Yes you can xfer more bandwidth per "read" cycle on teh lense. Again, who cares, we dont even come close to using 100% of the type "red" laser today.

If you believe that blu-ray is better, more power to you, but its not. The cost of blu-ray will drive up movei prices because of the new manufacturing stations needed. Because the blu-ray forum charges $3 per EVERY DISC (not just title) made. HD-DVD/DVD forums charges, I think $.09 or $.13. Why do you think resident evil on blue ray cost 40 bucks.... RIP OFF. Don't fall for the marketing hype. its all the same result in the end, except you'll pay more and allow big business to delegate its control of you.

But hey, what do you care, you hate MS (which has nothing do with HD-DVD) and thats why you dislike HD-DVD :roll eyes: get a clue

but not as much as stand alone players. When you count PS3, there's nearly a 10 to 1 advantage over HD-DVD in terms of players, but they only sell twice as many movies on BR versus HDDVD. That tells me that people are primarily using their consoles to play games, not watch movies.

Personally, I think someone using their console for anything other than an occasional movie is just asking for their unit to die an early death. Just ask XBox and PS2 owners who used to do that.

I don't care which format wins; I'm just waiting for one of them to take the other out. There's only so much crap that I'm going to tolerate in my living room, and my DVD player does a surprisingly good job up-converting to 720p.

HD-DVD isn't doing poorly; it's doing well against standard competition, standalone Blu-Ray players. The PS3 is the huge difference.

The PS3 has sold between 3.7 million and (if you believe some people on this site) 7 million units. SONY is largely to blame for the disprecency, as they went count from counting PS3s sold to counting PS3s shipped to counting PS3s manufactured to counting PS3 parts. LOL. But I digress...

So that makes 750,000 (3/4 million) HD-DVD players vs. 3.9 - 7 million Blu-Ray players, and yet only a 2:1 or 3:1 lead in movies sales?!? PS3 is saving Blu-Ray bigtime, but not to the extent you would think.

How many of you would have bought the PS3 for the same price if it had DVD instead of Blu-Ray? Most of you. How many of you would have bought a standalone Blu-Ray player for the same price? Zippo. PS3 is (supposed to be) game machine.

I smell something fishy; SONY must be taking one on the chin to win the format war. They did get a big chunk of change back from Toshiba, though...what if all XBOX360's had a built in HD-DVD drive or M$ gave away free/discounted HD-DVD player vouchers to all XBOX360 owners? A free or $50-100 (Elite owner vs Premium/Core owner) HD-DVD player plus the movies...hmmm, things would be very different...

P.S. If you own a PS3, buy or rent Uncharted.

the movie industry is not going to bank on the amount of PS3's sold.

ROTFLMAO, the FUD from the BD/$ony fanboys about an HD DVD story just lets me know how well HD DVD is doing AND how scared they are AND how my decision to go HD DVD is still just fine.

This also keeps me excited about how useless the PS3 really is. If it were worth while, all of you would be playing games in it instead of trying to spread your FUD on message boards.

BR = Blu-Ray
VG = Video games
Sony has spent more money on making sure that blu-ray becomes the standard, then any other technology they have, ever, in the history of Sony. They lost 10's of millions on VHS/Beta Max issue and they will stop @ NOTHING to be the new standard.

If some of you guys are correct and there are over 5 million blu-ray players vs. 750,000 HD-DVD players, why are blu-ray movies only outselling HD-DVD movies 2 to 1? Shouldn't it be 5 or 6 to 1?

Now if the fact that the number of blu-ray players dwarfing the HD-DVD players is pathetic then what do you call that rediculously sorry sales ratio they have vs. how many players they have?

"PS3 lifetime sales have reached 3.7 million units."

Its actually sold around 6 million

"The HD DVD group cites retailer reports. The 750,000 unit mark includes sales of standalone HD DVD players as well as the HD DVD add-on to the Xbox 360, which until recently was the least expensive device to play the high-def format."

How very interesting that they would 'naturally' exclude the PS3, when they 'naturally' include the Xbox figures? That's mighty strange indeed...of course, if they keep the PS3 in, HD would never have anything to celebrate would they?

You should all remember that the HD-DVD group are the same people who recently claimed that the Transformers HD-DVD sold 190k in its first week when it was proved it actually sold about 80k less than that. They are also the people who never include the PS3 in BluRay player sales but then they do include it as a BluRay player when they release attach rate figures.

The HD-DVD group are a bunch of liars to put it bluntly.

Way to go MS and Toshiba, Include X360's HDDVD player in your count but ignore the PS3 as a Player, ROFL, just trying to fling dirt, PS3 was a brill marketing idea for BD IMO

They add in xbox360 but exclude ps3 sales sound like somebody making hd-dvd look more than it is, include current ps3 sales and blu-ray is ahead by a bit.

All my friends just bought ps3's on special $350.00 3 games you get to choose and extra controller as well as a few blu-ray movies with trade in of 8 games that are more than 8 bucks.

Sony gave away 5 million BR players for free-
There are 750,000 HD-
That means there are 6.67 times as many BR as there are HD-
BR has sold twice as many movies as HD-
That tells us that people that buy HD buy three times as many movies as those who have a BR given to them for free.
Just think were we would be if Toshiba would have given away 5 million HD for free!

I honestly don't think enough people are going to buy PS3's for them to win the war. If Blu-ray only gets itself into the hands of gamers then they've got a big problem. (There are only so many gamers out there.) They need to come up with a standalone player that can compete with HD-DVD's offering if they want to win this thing. Otherwise, all the average Joe's who don't know what this "Final Fantasy" is and only look at price are going to go with HD-DVD. And believe me, there are a lot more average Joe's out there than gamers. (And not even all the gamers have, or even *want* PS3's.)

Actually for w.e. the 24.11.07 the figure shown for total PS3 sales in the US is 2.61 million (http://www.vgchartz.com/).
Naughty, naughty - someone has over inflated those previously mentioned PS3s sold in the US figures by just a few million....

Note: I own both BR (PS3) and HD-DVD (A30). These numbers are mainly due to the 300000 units sold for under $200 recently that are complete pieces of crap that are still limited to A2. You get what you pay for and both formats run the same price for similarly equipped units. Even at that, BR players are far superior to the crud that Toshiba has especially my A30..

Whats Toshiba smiling about? They lose money on every stand alone HD-DVD player they sell. And the worst part is; they can't even recoup those losses through software sales because Blu-ray movies continue to spank HD-DVD movie sales.

Every single poster is a Blueray clown!

If it's game over, why is it that Transformer sells almost as much as Spier-Man 3? This holiday season will see the complete shift in the CONSUMER market for HDDVD, clowns. We are talking CONSUMER market, not gaming market, and NO...PS3 isn't some crossover platform that Sony was hoping for, as I doubt any CONSUMERS are out looking at the PS3 as the medium to make as the centerpiece of the home entertianment center.

With stupid comments by Silverfrog like...duh...$199 BD player...duh...yeah, with Sony taking a financial beating on EACH and EVERY PS3 sold, i can jsut see how they are going to take more financial losses on the stand-alone to compete with HD-DVD. That's right...let's forget about RL stuff like investors and markets and whatnot...jsut fanboydom...

Clueless...HDDVD is gaining momentum, while BD and PS3 are losing it...they are falling behind in the critical console market, and Wii and Xbox360 are going to completely outstrip them this season, causing "grown-ups" who own movie studios to reconsider the exclusive to Blueray.

Don't be silly... you won't see one for at least a year.

These are people who actually what to buy movies and watch them on their main TV in the house. If I had my PS3 hooked up to my main TV (which is my best TV), I would never get to play it. Then again I don't play it at all anyway....

Seems like people might finally be getting tired of this format war. It used to be that articles like this one could be counted on to start flame wars, leading to lots and lots of posts. I guess it's time to move on to the next contraversial topic....

what about the number of HD DVD players excluding the Xbox 360 HD DVD addon

SO many BD fanbois here spreading bull about Blu-Ray. BD sales are sagging big time against HD-DVD. Gone is the 1 month that BD sold 50% more (not twice, but only 50% more) than HD-DVD. That was last summer! Oh well, once Sony denounces Blu-Ray, they'll still be here shouting how much better it is, even thought technically it's equal, and in many cases worse than HD-DVD.

Is that sony is hemorrhaging money to support it. The blu-ray player in PS3 is virtually a give away at sony's expense. Hope they don't go broke... For sony to break even from blu-ray sales and game royalties will take complete domination of the HD-DVD and video game format.

If these number continue, then HD-DVD will undoubtedly win. 750,000 to 200,00 over the next year increased by accelerating sales will put HD-DVD over the top in much higher numbers. And, stand alone players will outshadow PS3 for movies in no time. Look to see the Christmas sales take HD-DVD over the 1 million mark easily.

Sorry, but HD-DVD is on the road to creating another Sony format failures. Betting on Sony is a lose-lose situation for formats. Always has been, always will be.

The distinction between the XBox360 addon and the PS3 is clear. The addon is specifically made and for playing HD-DVD movies. The only people purchasing that addon would be those who plan on watching and purchasing HD-DVD content. That same statement can't be made in regards to the PS3. Although all PS3's do include a player, there's no distinction about a gaming machine being used for that....or proof of use. It's about "Intent". A consumer who purchases an HD-DVD addon "Intends" to use it for what it was made for. A consumer who purchases a PS3, "MIGHT" intend to use it for a Blu-Ray player, but there's no guarantee.

I happen to own both players, the XBox360 addon, and the PS3. I rent both formats from Netflix based on what I want to watch. The problem is that studios want me to purchase their movies, as a consumer. And I've set a personal price point I'm not willing to cross. To me a regular new release DVD @ $20 is acceptable...an HD version whether HD-DVD or Blu-Ray @ $29-45 is just not acceptable or feasable. Format wars are going to come down to software price, not player prices, until one or the other format settles on a $25 new release standard price, I think both will remain far nehind the curve in sales.

I'm a first time commenter on these HDDVD vs. BR comment boards but it truly is amazing to me that this many BR freaks are this ignorant. So many questions in this comment section on why the numbers include XBOX HDDVD addon drives but not PS3 BR drives when counting numbers. Well let me explain it for you...

The XBOX addon is purchased exclusively for HDDVD playing, it's not included with the XBOX therefore it's considered a standalone player, regardless of the fact that it will be connected to the XBOX to play HD DVD's. It's a decision by a consumer to purchase an HDDVD player in addition to their DVD playing XBOX, something you can't get with the PS3. Therefore, it is added to the count, as it should be...If Sony sold a BR Addon to the PS3 instead of selling one in the PS3, those numbers would count in the same way for BR, as the purchase of the addon is a choice in addition to the PS3...

As many individuals have already mentioned, if the PS3 didn't come with a BR player, where would BR stand? Truly ask yourself this question if you're a BR advocate. Would you have gone out and purchased a standalone BR player in the last year in addition to your DVD only PS3. I highly doubt it, and if you state otherwise, well 90% of you are full of 5hi , plain and simple. The only reason the XBOX addon has sold like it has is because of the price, plain and simple.

@tleavit

I'd like you to inform all of us on why your A30 is crap. What set's the HD experience on your PS3 apart from the HD experience from your A30, playing aside. What about your movie experience puts the PS3 on a different level? I'm truly curious as I'm going to be purchasing a PS3 and would like to know what it's going to offer me that my A3 doesn't (apart from 1080P). Considering my A3 does all I want it to, and the picture is beautiful, I can only assume that the PS3 would provide the same experience just using a different format. I have yet to hear why one is truly better then the other (I don't give a shit about space, especially since the new 3 layer HDDVD has trumped BR's 50GB).

In the meantime, I'll own both and take all of these comments and articles with a grain of salt...But I really am looking for somebody to tell me what I'm gonna get with BR that I couldn't or don't get with HD. I know there are some features that HD has which BR doesn't but quite frankly, I don't give a crap as I won't use a networking feature to text my friends while all of us watch the movie together (http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/34992/98/) Duh!!!. If BR had a $200 player first, I would have bought it first...In the end the average consumer is worried about the $$$, plain and simple, and none of us putting our .02 cents in on this board or any other is going to change that, as $$$ is always the bottom line.

I don't understand why a person insists (which many here do) that one format is better than the other. I own both a HD-DVD player and a PS3 that I watch blue ray on regularly. There is no discernible difference in quality between the formats. PERIOD! The fact is... a good up converting DVD player is nearly as good (in some cases better)than both. The quality depends on the movie and how it was mastered. This battle is far from played out. Toshiba is being very aggressive with pricing. Sony is starting to get aggressive with the PS3 but this is a game machine (at least it's supposed to be) that just happens to play blu-ray.

Bottom Line: Most people think regular DVD's are already HD. I bet if you asked 10 random people 9 out of 10 people don't know the difference. Sales are half the battle. Marketing is the other half.

You guys are idiots.

Not everyone buying a PS3 is buying it to watch Blu-Ray movies.

EVERYONE buying the 360 add on IS. That's exactly why PS3 sales are left out.

Idiots.

The reason is quite simple to spot that people who bought HD-DVD with XBOX360 is only used to watch HD-DVD movie or series, as far as I know there is no game in HD-DVD format. But those who bought PS3, how many of those use it to watch movie is unknown.

Are we forever destined to see only half of all movies in HD?

Time for an affordable universal HD player to make the format war moot.

I actually buy my movies so I don't care that you can't rip it. So how am I dense? Because I work for a living and pay people for making a good product?

Wow i was talking to manager of EB and a few other big box stores there blowing them out the door as fast as they get them.

Most places are out of stock , everyone i know bought one for xmas.

Seems that philips little bribes to big movie companies didn't pan out like they thought.

They are offering 5 blu-ray movies with each ps3 sold and from sales figues its 20x more than hd-dvd sold in standalones and xbox360 combined.

Yeah, let's exclude PS3.. let's all forget the PS3 on this.. so.. Let's forget the XB360 add-on and remove 150k units from that figure.. Good enough?? So, now we have 600k stand alone BD players... What now???

And.. BD Movies are selling 2x1 on the US, 4x1 on europe.. And you are saying that HD is gaining momentum?? lol..

Even A30 owners are pissed off about the crappy HD-DVD player they have and you are praising the 'momentum'??


You guys say "BD FANBOYS", I say "HD-DVD FANBOYS"... That's what you guys really are, cuz... otherwise you would consider removing the ADD-ON from the listing..


btw, WHY there are such a huge debate with fanboys here?? I don't own either format but it's clear that BD has a better momentum than the HD-DVD...

You might say: Oh, Transformers sells almost as much as Spiderman3.. Cool.. ALMOST!!.. And, you forgot about 300 and other BD exclusive titles..

Why advocate in favor of the Blu-Ray format? Well, I can get PCM audio or Dobly Digital Pro Logic instead of just one of those. I can choose those audio.. A30 players play 'stereo'.. :D Try to hook up your HD-DVD XB360 addon to a 5.1 surround system.. ooops.. you can't..

I will get me a Blu-Ray player this x-mas.. Why? cuz I want to enjoy my 42" LCD with my 6.1 Home Theater...

Oh, PS3 isn't just a gaming platform.. It's a media center, just like the XB360 is... That's why it's a blu-ray player, just like the XBox 360 is a DVD player (did you forget that? BTW, did you know that the XBox 360 add-on is connected through the USB port?? Even if it's USB 2.0, it isn't fast enough to play both the HD video and the HD audio, thus the add-on plays only stereo audio, LOL to that)..

About the production costs of a BD, did you guys even read Tom's Hardware?? It was said that the production costs of the blu-ray disks were near the cost of DVDs because they have figured out a new 'coating' so they can use the 'old factories' to produce BD..

The only place that HD is trying to fight now it's US, cuz they have lost over europe and Japan. Those 2 are not even considered on this 'counting'..
That's just a marketing campaign centered only over the HD-DVD camp over US. Everywhere else the battle is already over (4:1 to the Blu-Ray side it's a real killer ratio)..

I've followed this nosense as far as I can tolerate. As a former CD technician (since early 90s) I see a lot of stupidity on this subject. Everyone in all these flamings have missed two absolutes that "are" going to determine the fate of HD or BD. 1.) Their technical differences are minimal at best, and since compression compensates a lot for results (anyone still remember ripping CD tracks to WAV files @ 8.8 MB/min), the only "real" issue of technical concern then is convenience. BD , regional-coding, and AACS are all a pain in the ass and add nothing to the consumer's experience except aggravation, and for those that sing BD's blessings, Macrovision (now full-owner of BD technology) has been the most anti-consumer rights company since it's creation in '83. 2.) No one has given any thought as to how many of hollywood's titles (>230k in the US history alone) are/were appropriately shot for a quality of transfer that would deliver a respectable HD experience. One clue, you can take out just about everything made before the 1990s. This alone means HD-quality movie prints represent about 2-5% of all releases, and therefore DVD-quality transfers are more than adequate for the rest, hence not much use for HD or BD in the short-term. The economics of this suggests that renting the few titles up to the task of HD playback is more economical and would therefore negate any possible comparison of this format-war to the Beta vs VHS mess; they are apples and oranges.

is that a typo? you mean PS3 right? hahaha

Let me start by stating that I don't own a BD or HD-DVD player yet; As both are still too expensive, here in Canada. We have, unfortunately, not experienced the same level of discounted sales as those in the US. We don't have a "Black Friday" and the cheapest stand-alone models, the HD-A3 and the BDP-S300 are still $349(CDN)/$354(USD) and $499 (CDN)/$505(USD) respectively. However, I made my choice long ago after seeing both on display at the local Best Buy; Upon seeing both in action, the HD-DVD players displayed a consistantly better image (cleaner, sharper, more vibrant colour). Don't get me wrong, I have seen some beautiful looking BD movies (Casino Royale, Pirates, DejaVu); But ALOT of the BD movies that I have seen have been visibly grainy and undersaturated. For me it really comes down to two things, price and quality selection. The average HD-DVD movie, at least in Vancouver, costs $24 compared to $32 for BD. Also, there are more titles, from HD-DVD supporting Studios, that I would buy, as compared to BD (Heroes, The Matrix, Star Trek)... waiting for LOTR. Furthermore, if you want to see a more accurate comparison of hardware sales, remove the PS3 from the equation and the numbers change drastically. After all, the PS3 is supposed to be a gaming system, right Sony? What do you think this "War" would look like if Microsoft would have included an HD-DVD in the XB360 from day one? Hmmm, 15M 360's as compared to Sony's 5-6M PS3's; If that would have been the case there wouldn't be a "War" BD would have went the way of the BetaMax... and the MiniDisc... and the UMD. That's my $0.02,... or $20, judging by the length of my ramble. ;)

When the movie companies take full advantage in the size of the discs. Here is some information from a web page I was reading earlier.

HD DVD discs can store up to 15GB on a single layer and up to 30GB on two layers. Its competitor, Blu-ray, can store up to 27GB per single layer and up to 50GB on two layers.

So sure, they might look identical when you place the two media formats next to one another. In time though it will boil down to who can cram more features on the discs. With an extra 20gigs of storage to play with it might hard for HD-DVD to stand up to that.

For those of you who think that the two formats are Technically Equal please read the following

HD DVD discs can store up to 15GB on a single layer and up to 30GB on two layers. Its competitor, Blu-ray, can store up to 27GB per single layer and up to 50GB on two layers.

When it comes down to it later in this debate which I agree is pointless, is storage space. Who can cram more features on the movies and such. With an extra 20gb of storage, Blu-ray wins this. I am in no way a Fanboy, say what you will, I currently do not own any of them. However, from a Technical standpoint, blu-ray will win.

BR has ALOT more DRM. Therefore I will not be purchasing it. I refuse to purchase a format that advocates the limited use of media that I purchase. HD-DVD only comes with AACS (already cracked) and is region free (thank god!). Good luck trying to play BR content on anything other than windows vista with an HDCP video card connected to an HDCP monitor through an HDCP enabled cable.

Whichever format signs first with the porn industry wins! It's as simple as that! Just like the fight between the VHS and the Sony Beta format (I think that's what it was called, maybe I'm wrong). Sont's format was much better but in the end VHS won. A few months back I heard that HD-DVD signed with the porn industry and Sony was acting like a saint saying there will never be porn on BR but I heard that they finally agreed to a point. This fight will be interesting!

Star trek $200 all tv series are more expensive on hd-dvd than they are on blu-ray.

Harry potter 5 movies disc set is $104 and its current.

With every ps3 thats sold you get 5 free blu-ray movies with every hd-dvd player you get 3.

Thats a 5 to 3 ratio people, toshiba says ps3 don't count lol you get 5 free movies you think people are not going to watch them after buying there ps3.

Porn is out on blu-ray:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,182370,00.html

There are more porn studios using blu-ray than hd-dvd atm so basically hd-dvd has lost.

I sure fox news is a reliable source so there you go.

I love how there are several people saying "HD-DVD is doomed" and "BR is better".

The simple FACT is that neither is better than the other in terms of quality. You get what you get, with all the same video quality. But the difference is you pay 2-5x the price for the blu-ray player. AND this costs Sony money.

I think Sony's only true advantage with blu-ray is that since Sony controls quite a few studios, therefor keeping a lot of great movies from hitting HD-DVD format. If both formats had the same movies, why not save some money and go with HD-DVD all the way?

Also: Blu-ray = 50gb dual layer, HD-DVD = 51gb tri layer. So anybody who is "worried" about HD-DVD not having enough storage space (for whatever reason) should know that they are staying competitive towards Blu-ray in that realm.

HD-DVD fanboi? Nope, just have not seen Sony do anything but lust their own formats (Betamax, Minidisc, Memory stick, etc.) and fail obviously many times to force their standards on everybody else.

It makes me laugh to see people claim the superiority of BD by using outdated information. A triple-layered HD-DVD will provide 51 GB of storage space compared to 50 GB for a BD disc. Add to that the many DRM restrictions of te BD disc and the fact that HD is region-free and you have a clear winner.

BD zealots would like the numbers of the PS3 to be included even though only a small fraction of those consoles are actually used to play movies. But they would also like the XBox 360 player numbers to be left out event though this is an add-on, thus considered as a standalone player since anyone who bought one of those will actually use it to play movies.

About the adult industry , I'm not sure how much of a decisive factor they're going to have on this issue. Back in the VHS/Beta war, the tapes were an alternative to going see the movies in theater wich made things a lot more private. How much of they're consumer base will want HD movies over regular DVDs? Does a 1080p picture really matters when you're watching porn?

And has nothing to do with player sales or price, and it never did. It's about availability and price of the movies. And right now the availability is split between two formats so it's a stalemate like the Sony CEO already said.


I hope, in the mean time, another format comes along from China that has little or no royalties, so it's dirt cheap. Has all the features of the other HD formats and adds Deep Color and any other features the other formats missed because they are so concerned for themselves instead of what's good for the consumer.

it broke the dvd market wide open...before the ps2 dvd sales in japan were lukewarm at best...post ps2 dvds were flying off the shelves...i'm not saying that history will repeat itself ...but most ppls arguments are way off base and mostly reactionary tripe...all the shouting in the world doesn't make you MORE correct

Yippie... HD-DVD now matches BR-DVD by adding an extra layer - great for them, other than the fact that BR has already demo'd a 6-layer 150gb disk and by all reports there's no way HD could ever get clost to that. The reason there isn't a 3 layer BR disk on the market is because there's not really a market for one yet.

HD-DVD plays catch up and everyone acts like it means anything. Hardware wise... BR is easily the superior technology, HD's advantages lie in it's better production costs (cheaper) and it's more advanced software (which means better on-disk extra's).

If you're going to slam BR... don't do it in areas where it's got the clear advantage.

I'm not buying a PS3 until it includes 10 BD movies 12 games and a partridge in a pear tree.

Geesh, how many freebies do you have to give away to get people to buy the darn thing?

You never hear anyone say, "Mercedes gives you 2 pairs of driving gloves and a pair of sunglasses but BMW only gives you a pair of driving mocs. I'm definitely going with Mercedes!"

As for Deus/Blah, the extra space is a red herring. HD-DVD has already negated the argument in two ways:

1) Trilayer format gives HD-DVD more space the dual layer BD (Until BD comes up with tri-layer, if possible).

2) Every HD-DVD player can be hooked to the internet via an ethernet port for additional content.

And how many of you have ever watched the second DVD of a 2 DVD set more than once (or even once)? It's a "nice to have" and I'll spend the extra $5 for it, but it is not an absolute "have to have." That's the movie.

And the EU ratio of 4-1 includes HD-DVD formats of movies only available as BD in North America and then says that they are BD. Thus the ratio inflation.

Yes, even Sony sells movies in HD-DVD format outside the US and Canada. Hmmmm.

Today's Most Popular DVD-Players on Amazon:

http://www.jangle.net/Electronics/DVD-Players/Most-Popular/Page-1/=Search/Save.aspx

The most important specification for picture quality is Bit Rate not resilution. The HD DVD player is capable of 36mbp/s and Blu-ray is Capable of 54mbp/s. I was watching car the movie the other day and I hit the display button and was watching the bit rate at the corner of the screen when I reilised that the movie wouldn't even play on an HD DVD player because it had a bit rate of between 28 and 44 mbp/s and that's way higher than a HD DVD player can play.

Who get porn on disc anymore?
it's so easy and cheap to get it over internet.
20$ a month all you can get?
So porn on HD is a non-factor.
Not like back in the day when there is no internet
and has only video tapes.

PS3 sales have increased by 295% since the price drop and the introduction of the 40GB player. 750,000 units is horrable when you consider it's been on the market a year and a half longer than the PS3 and the size of the world market. This is vary vary bad news for HD DVD. Remeber there are over 6 billion people in the world. HD DVD dosen't stand a chance and it never did. As far as Paramont and Univerwsal are concerned it will take me a few years to get all the availble Blu-ray discs I want, so I don't care about the movies they have that I can't buy, at least not until I run out of movies on Blu-ray to buy. That could be a long time. HD DVD will be a distant memory by then.

Hiruu, you are a moron. Sony taking a loss on every PS3 sold has nothing to do with Samsung or any other manufacturer from potentially dropping its price to $199, in order to achieve market dominance. Wake up. You are an HD-DVD proponent...that much is obvious. But, calling me fanboy only paints you as one yourself.

Right now, the major advantage of HD-DVD stand alone players is the price. I stand by what I said. When a BD player matches the pricing, game over for the "war".

And, the arguement about PS3 owners not using the full capabilities of their systems will not hold water forever. Eventually, EVERYONE will be using their PS3's full potential and slowly but surely be buying more Blu Ray discs.

Prove me wrong.

No good titles and crappy $ony tech, no wonder so many companies have switched camps. When will $ony make some games for the ps3 and stop wasting time in a battle they have already lost. Only a sucker would buy the 40 gig ps3 with no back compat or sacd.

Hi..
I've been reading the posts so far with some interest.. and frankly 'fanboys' would seem to be a good way of describing most of the posters so far. What interests me is the things that AREN'T mentioned.

So let me make a couple of points that have been ignored so far on this thread.

1/ Consumers DON'T CARE which format wins. Frankly, I don't understand why so many of you guys are getting so worked up about it either. A consumer wants to be able to watch the full range of titles on equipment that he/she feels won't be obsolete in six months time. What the industry is doing is bad for business and bad for the consumer too. Consumers don't like and don't trust artificial barriers to doing what they want. So the idea of not being able to buy the hi-def version of a movie simply because it hasn't been released in your chosen format is the best reason for not making the choice at all.

2/ With this in mind - the REAL sales figures that will be of interest, especially after christmas, won't be HD vs BR - it'll be old-style DVD against BR and HD combined. That'll tell everyone what consumers *really* think, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out the answer.

3/ Cost? Well, let's see. I don't know prices in the US, but here in Europe an HD-level TV set still gets a premium price. But how much TV is actually HD-quality? Not much.. And a fair bit of the stuff that's alleged to be HD quality just ain't. Since there's no point buying an HD or BR standalone player without a TV to match...

3/ Interesting that nobody has mentioned the real prize - the PC market. PS/3 sales? You'll be looking at PC sales of over a BILLION units before whichever technology wins out becomes obsolete. The PC market - probably - won't take off until the argument has been decided, but you never know.. And with 50GB writeable disks, it means that backing up on a terabyte drive will become possible again.. Of course, if the PC market DOES take off one way or the other, that may be enough to settle the issue one way or the other. So the cost of blank disks could be an important factor too.

4/ Again, compression. Look at what DivX has achieved in the filesize/quality battle. I'll comee back to this in a minute..


So here it is, folks. One of two things is going to happen. Either one side will give up, in which case consumers will breathe a sigh of relief and buy what they're given - or there's a second possibility that doen't seem to have occurred to posters yet. Some genius will come up with a compression process that allows the quality of video to be stored on a standard 9gb DVD player. And for a couple of dollars on top of the cost of a current DVD player - oops! But it won't happen will it - because current US laws are designed to protect the Hollywood moguls against precisely that kind of thing. In fact, you guys across the pond have somehow allowed the most blatant anti-consumer laws in history to be enacted. Sorry, but it's true,..

Personally I think HD-DVD will win out. It's cheaper, and there isn't a regional code issue. Plus - and I'm sorry to say this - it's more easily hacked. In the end, the consumer market doesn't just consist of technophiles who can afford to buy high-end gaming machines and iPhones - it's mostly made up of people who don't understand what they're buying, or do but can't afford the designer names.

In the meantime, it's Coca-Cola vs Pepsi, with the cheap budget versions outselling them both many times over.

Beta owns all! It will make a comeback and pummel HD and Blu-Ray into the ground!

why is ps3 better? because it has all the qualities of a hddvd player plus it plays games and has a hdd. plain and simple!

BD people are so oversold on the PS3, when the PS3 is so under-performing in movie playback it's silly. But, at the climbing rate of HD-DVD player sales, the true movie players for which the market will side with will over take PS3 within the next year. Easily.

And, no BD does NOT have a better picture. 1080p does NOT require 54Mb/s output. The digital signal going out of a player to a TV is not compressed and is static. That shows you how really ignorant Blu-Ray supporters are.

Jay,

You are comparing a $100-200 product to a $400-600 product. I would EXPECT at minimum for it to do more than play a movie.

...Well, actually you get 7 free HD-DVD with the purchase of any marked Toshiba HD-DVD player (HD-A3,A30,A35), 6 with the Xbox360 add-on. You get King Kong inside Xbox360 add-on plus a coupon for 5 more HD-DVDs free, by mail.

http://web1.toshiba.ca/toshibahddvd/completeHDoffer.php

Why should one person support a storage support?
Bah! I have PS3 and I hope BD wins so that I won't have to buy another device to see films, period. This, however, doesn't make me a BD-fan.
However:
1. It is obvious that there are more BD capable players sold on Earth than HD-DVD.
2. It's nonsense claiming that PS3 isn't used for seeing movies: I've paid 600 bucks for it and you bet I'd be using it also for cooking if it was possible!
3. If I were a film-maker and I want to sell my movie to consumer, I would see how many HD-DVD or BD players are on market and then decide. 750,000 HD-DVD against millions BD players? I will no-doubt choose BD as support!
It is costing more than producing on HD-DVD? Well, then I'll have to compare the cost of the support against its diffusion. IMHO, BD doesn't costs so much more than HD-DVD to compensate the difference in diffusion.

Steve, you bring up some good points but are not taking into account what those millions of BD players are: a game console. Movie studios are NOT going to base their decisions soley on the amount of players out there, but on stand alone players. The demographic of PS3 owners may work for movies like '300' but what about all of the other movies like 'The Notebook' for instance? Sony needs more stand alone players at a cheaper price if they really want to win the 'war'. This is what makes the lower number of HD DVD players (even without the 360 ad-on) significant.

Bit rate is another red herring from Sony. BD uses MPEG-2, HD-DVD uses MPEG-4 so bit rate comparisons are garbage.

If the movie looks good, it looks good.

Doesn't even matter how much the disc holds, as long as it holds the movie. Even then, look at how many people, myself included, bought the extended versions of LOTR. You have to change the DVD halfway through each movie, but we still bought it. Capacity doesn't matter, people are used to the movie on one disc and the extras on another, too.

These formats are equal to the average Joe and most above average Joes, too. Consumers vote with their wallets, and the format that takes the least out of my wallet is the one I back.

The game studios are playing is muddling the issue in the short term. PS3 is confusing the issue for the hard-core gamers who really think it should be included as a full-time movie player (but the studios are very cautious on that one). But in the long run, the consumer goes with the cheap stuff even if quality is slightly lower. That's why we all have VHS players in our houses.

My big beef is that even Sony is releasing movies on HD-DVD format in the rest of the world. We, in America, are get screwed so they can prove their (very weak) point!

I haven't bought either because DVDs look just wonderful on my 720p TV. I don't even up convert (my TV does enough of that on it's own). But I hate the idea of buy either format because a studio is only releasing their movies in one. So I TiVo mostly right now.

Wateva, a few things you completely stated incorrectly, or that I agree with...

1. "Yeah let's exclude the PS3"

I'll try to explain one more time...I'm not discounting Sony's PS3 sales, they are definitely significant and obviously play a part in this so called war. However, standalone player count is a number that any person or studio can look at and say, that purchase was made exclusively for the ability to play HD content. Plain and simple. A PS3 purchase isn't an exclusive purchase therefore harder to attribute to BR Disc playing, a XBOX 360 addon is just for playing HD DVD. You nor I can change that.

2. "A30 owners are pissed off"

I've never seen complaint other then the one in this forum on the A30, not that they don't exist I'm sure. I don't own one so I can't speak to it's issues or not, but I can definitely say that my A3 does exactly what I thought it would, plays 1080i content on my 1080i tv and it looks great and the sound is awesome. What more can I say, but that's just my experience.

3. Am I a HD DVD fanboy?

I guess I am, as the A3 dropping to $200 and including 9 DVD's was my tipping point. I could finally get into HD at a realistic cost. Had Blu-Ray done it first, I might be on the other side of the ball. But I'll be honest, I don't care for Sony's tactics with installing rootkits and going to the utmost lengths to stop me from doing what I will with what I own. I should be able to make a backup of my DVD or CD any day of the week. I should NOT be able to distribute it around the world, no debate there. I understand and appreciate the need for DRM, but some organizations are choosing to go to levels I can't believe. I'm not going to give my money to any organization that will go to those lengths, not willingly at least. But I still really want a PS3, but really think Sony muffed up when they gave such crappy backwards compatibility for PS2 games and then removed the capability as a whole for 399 PS3. Think they shot themselves in the foot there as I know two families (not mine) that have chosen not to go with a PS3 because of it and are instead going to a Wii this christmas and purchasing a replacement PS2.

4. "Transformers sells almost as much as Spiderman 3"

Transformers sold more then spiderman 3, 130,000 versus 190,000...

5. "A30 players play 'stereo'.. :D Try to hook up your HD-DVD XB360 addon to a 5.1 surround system.. ooops.. you can't.. "

Ummmm... What should I say, you don't know what the hell you're talking about here. While the XBOX can't play Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD, it most certainly can play Dolby Digital and DTS. And my A3 specs, well here they are,

Dolby Digital: 5.1 channels
Dolby Digital Plus: 5.1 channels
Dolby TrueHD: 5.1 channels
DTS : 5.1 channels
DTS HD (core only): 5.1 channels

Hmm, think your facts are a little off, but only a little. ;)

6. "Oh, PS3 isn't just a gaming platform.. It's a media center, just like the XB360 is..."

Please don't put these in the same category, as Microsoft's Media Center and the XBOX 360 extender functionality trump anything Sony's trying to accomplish with their mediocre media capabilities. That's not even a debatable comment. And you're still wrong about the Audio.

7. "About the production costs of a BD, did you guys even read Tom's Hardware?? It was said that the production costs of the blu-ray disks were near the cost of DVDs because they have figured out a new 'coating' so they can use the 'old factories' to produce BD.. "

If true, good to hear. Will make the BD more affordable = good for me...

8. " The only place that HD is trying to fight now it's US, cuz they have lost over europe and Japan."

I think your point is valid, I no longer think that the US will be the deciding factor, as we're somewhat behind the curve when it comes to technology from an adopting standpoint.

First JP, great post, well thought out, and very factual. I also hope HD-DVD wins, and for most of the reasons that you stated. But if BD discs start selling at $19.95 or less (regular price) next week, I would seriously look into a BD player. I only have a limited amount of money, unfortunately, and the kids have to eat.

Point #8 is the only comment I disagree with. For two reasons:

1) I don't think the European reports are accurate because the BD "exclusive" studios, including Sony, sell their movies on HD-DVD in Europe. I suspect (being a Marketing guy I know how these guys think) that they report HD-DVD sales from these BD "exclusive " studios as "Blu-Ray Releases". Note that they don't say "Blu-Ray Format" sales when talking about Europe.

2) Since the US (and Region 1) is the only place where BD exclusivity seems to be enforced, I think the studios, Sony included, are fighting this war mainly in the US and our preference (long term) will decide which format dominates. The rest of the world will have to live with our decisions. I also think we are more price sensitive than Europe and Japan, so the Almighty Dollar, love it or hate it, will decide the ultimate fate of these formats.

1. I have to say that I posted point 8 before reading what somebody else pointed out on the Euro BD sales numbers. That individual pointed out that numbers mention Blu-Ray Title's versus Blu-Ray disc, two very different things. So I agree with you.

2. Good point here as well. But I do believe that in the end large PS3 sales with a BR player are going to have some effect, as we're already seeing with the sale of BR Disc's here in the US.

In the end, I'm with you. The cost is going to get the best of me, but as stated in my point 3, I'm going to resist supporting an empire that doesn't believe in my rights as a consumer and an owner of content for as long as I possibly can, or is that as long as I can afford to. ;)

PS: I also like your piece on the bit rate... Thank you for being factual in your comments as the average consumer needs to hear the truth, not one sides version of the truth.

I play games on the ps3, and the HD movie playback was an added bonus. I had no idea there was people who cared which format would win. Is everyone ragging on each other in hopes that will make their prefered format win? What the hell, is Blu Ray or HD-Dvd paying you to represent?

If you really want an indicator of whose "winning" go to your local Walmart. They're one of the first major corps to make big decisions on what the "people's choice" is. Remember when walmart decided to not carry VHS any more, every other stored soon followed. Count how many theyre carrying of each. Then come back with results. Simple enough can you guys handle it?

Above all, Just enjoy your movies!

Group hug

Hi Ryan and everybody else.
I see your point. It is probably erroneous considering ALL PS3s sold as HD-movie players.
However, if there are people that bought that device only for gaming purpose, there are people that said:
"Well, it costs a lot, but I can see movies, too. I could play some games, replace DVD-player and be ready for some HD-movies..." (put me in this category).
So, I think that at least in some percentage PS3s should be considered as movie-players when comparing the numbers between BD and HD-DVD players sold.
Honestly, I don't know the numbers of PS3s sold by now. Let's say 6 millions (I saw that number above).
If 12.5% of these devices are used to see films you reached the number of HD-DVD players sold as a whole (and you don't consider BD stand-alone players).
Is considering 12.5% of PS3 sold as movie-players a bad estimate?

I bought one from CC yestesday...SP300 Sony blu ray player...

I bought one just yesterday a Sony SP300 blu ray player for $59.00 at CC. Yes, $59.00 bucks.

So far, it works great. Going to buy some B-ray movies and really test it out.

What the hell are you talking about here? because im afraid you people who think this are very uninformed! this is absolute nonsense there is bluray and hddvd hyere in europe too and believe me ou will not see bluray excluise content on hddvd. this is a lie!!!
Sounds stupid if you think about it. Blu-ray is winning the world U.S is the only market where hddvd is even slightly close so i think you guys should get your facts straight before copying someone else's coment as fact.
oh in Australia Blu-ray acounts for over 85 of the market and in PC writable BD drives nearly 100% of the market.
So all im trying to say is do some reserch people
and dont be duleuded to think bluray would relase on hddvd in other contries. Also SONY DO NOT OWN BLU-RAY ITS A MIXTURE OF COMPANYS SO GIVE SONY A BREAK.

B, please look around before you comment. You could learn something interesting.

http://xploitedcinema.com/catalog/underworld-evolution-spanish-release-p-11690.html

Isn't this a Sony (Screen Gems) release? Wow, it's HD-DVD. It's Spanish (hey, they're part of Europe aren't they?)

There are many others, form Sony, Disney, all of them. They usual use subsidiary studio names, but hey still release in HD-DVD.

Amazon.co.uk doesn't have them anymore. I gues Sony said, "Pretty Please." But if you look they are there. Do you really live in EU?

Master Audio is English: cool! and no region encoding so you can play it anywhere.

BD is region encoded. Why? DRM!

Regions were needed for SD but HD has been standardize so region coding for BD is purely "divide and conquer."

If I want to trade or sell a DVD with a buddy in EU, I understand why it won't work. NTSC (US) is 525 lines of resolution (effectively 720x480) and PAL is 625 (720x576).

Plus because the TVs were designed in the analog age the different AC frequencies (60 vs 50) also affected the frame rates (29.97 vs. 25) plus a whole bunch of other stuff since EU didn't consult with the US much when they devised their TV standards. France uses SECAM which adds to the issue.

HD was developed in the digital age. The standard are 1280x720 and 1920x1080 (both of which play on any HDTV with a little digital manipulation). And the frame rates are malleable as well due to the digital nature of HDTV. I know the broadcast rates change due to the historical standards, but I believe that HD-DVD is standardized on a single frame rate. At any rate (pun intended) that can be played on any set.

So why can't I trade/sell/give my BD disc to my friend in EU? Because Sony, Disney and others want my friend to have to buy his own damn BD movie!

(I can't find much info on the framerate for HD-DVD or BD. Is it 59.94 or 50? Of course 24p would be closer to film, but I wouldn't expect HD-DVD to use it.)

According to Hig Def Disc News, HD format movies are 2.5% of the total market for movies on disc format. DVD is 97.5% of the market, for those not good with math. It also appears that there are more PS3s out there than BD movies. Or at least than BD movies that were sold.

For those not up on their economic theory, 2.5% is not enough to make any grand assumptions or pronouncements. It'll be a few years before people start buying enough of one or the other to make any difference.

750,000 HD-DVD players, 200,000 BD players, 6 million PS3. 3 million HD discs. 4 billion people in the world. Even is you only look at the Billion or so in NA and Europe at say 200 million families, that's about one movie and 2 players (I'll be nice and include all the PS3s) for every 70 households. Compared to how many DVDs the average family has.

Paul (The Other One),please look around before you comment. YOU could learn something interesting.

Region coding wasn't meant as a compatibility help, it was made to keep the bussiness balanced of each region.

A disc that might cost let's say 15 dollars in US, should cost in.. hmm let's say Sweden, 6,5 * 15 = 97,50 swedish crowns. But it doesn't! It costs around 150 swedish crowns, and if there were no region coding, then people would never buy their DVDs in Sweden (in this example), they would just import them from other countries! This is the reason for region coding.. Lesson learned?

Now go and swap your some movies with your friends :rolleyes:

Paul,
He obviously proved that B is incorrect with the BlueRay Movie Not being on sale in Europe. Whatever you said did not make a dent to that STATEMENT. The FACT is HDDVD can play Sony, Disney studio content.

Now, in a business point of view, I can see that Regional coding is nessecary. However, as a consumer, I will think about the number of content available for my player.

One thing I dont like about blueray player is that every Blueray specification revision requires you to get a new Blueray player to take advantage of it. When Bluray 2.0 came out, everyone will have to buy another player. This is sick.

When more foreign markets start to sell MORE blueray exclusive for HD-DVD, the only reason to keep a blueray player is PS3.