Why would you make the developmental kits so expensive to begin with? You know you are going to lose money in the early life cycle of the console, so wouldn't you do your (Sony) best to get the tools to the developers at a reasonable price? I will never understand Sony's thinking at times. Well, let's see if this open the door for more creative developments.

because it's an awesome console that's why! The first games that come out on any console tend to be kinda crappy because there is a lot that people dont understand about how that particular console handles code. So rather than having a ton of really crappy and buggy games come out (thus ruining the name of the PS3) they highly inflate the SDK price so that only those who are willing to put in the effort will work on it. Now obviously, most of the games for the PS3 havent been all that amazing (yet, and with exceptions of heavenly sword and assasins creed which are amazing though short), but that only goes to show how bad games would be in 'just anybody' could fork over $10K and dev games.

The fact that the SDK blows and the tools Sony has to develop for the PS3 are inadequate are the problem... not the SDK price.

Just a lame way for Sony to get some positive press... because you sure are not going to ready anything about Ratchet and Clank being a blockbuster. The game may be a critical success... but sales are pathetic.

This is why you absolutely can't trust sony as a leader (and many other companies as well, such as microfluff).

If they can get your ballzzz in a vice grip, you better believe they would turn & turn and turn until your eyes popped out LOL.

Microfluff pulls is trying to exercise the same crap.

They locked down the kernal so that other developers products didn't work. And wanted them to come to them (thanks to court this was thwarted early in vista).

They come up with the supposedly "Games For Windows" crap where they claim they have gamers best interest at heart. They claim to want the best for ALL PC gamers and care about our experience.

Then BAM... DX10 only vista.
Then BAM... Halo 2 and 3 only on vista

And the idiots come out in droves not realizing what is going on. The defend them saying crap like "vista can be found for only $90".

Some of these companies want to make a killing every turn of the way. Sony was simply exploiting their position as the middle man on what they had initially perceive was going to be the greatest gaming system ever created. This thought was far off and now they are trying the old lure tactic.

And without competition and other tech options they'd laugh all the way to the bank.

Blu ray would be absolutely try to suck the life out of the perceived "upper class" purchasers.

The royalty fees are still higher than HD-DVD.

If HD-DVD wasn't so greedy they could have stopped blu ray in it's tracks long ago. But they are trying to make a killing even when the dvd media is so much cheaper. It's a crime...

Sorry jumped topics sort of, the bottom line is if Sony can, they will overcharge anyone with 'no shame' because of arrogance.

Sony thinks they are doing developers a favor buy allowing them to develop games for them. Now all of a sudden they lower the price now that there aren't enough games.

They should give the kit away, but make them sign a disclosure agreement so they don't give it out.

Not that it's not already on Pirate Bay.

In the good old days, console hardware does not lose money. This only starts when the PS launches.

The way for Sony to recover the R&D and cost of the hardware are:
Sell the development kits
Sell the platform license
Sell the peripherals
Make the media

Development kits are always expensive for proprietary systems like Consoles. This is to keep the market "neat and tidy" so any joe won't get one to attempt to hack the machine rather than develop for it.

These kits also come with support from the console manufacturer, which costs a lot too. And, a lot of proprietary code and code generation tools are included, which also cost a lot.

There's much more to a console that most people realize.

Of course, this also signals that Sony is loosing it's shirt in the console market now. As soon as the public realizes how bad Blu-Ray is, that'll be the end of the PS3 too. Count on it.

How much is 360 and Wii developers kits?

It should be free imo , greed kills.

Good point, Richard
I wonder why they would charge at all the development kit; how much do they earn on it ( let's say 50 developers x 20000$ = 1 million $ - it is nothing in comparison with the fact that there is not enough games for PS3, and Sony is losing big money on that)

I don't understand how halfing the prie of the SDK will help with anything. The savings of $10,000 fixed costs of purchasing the SDK are nothing when you look at the millions that have to be put into actual development of the game. This price cut does essentially nothing to offset the millions more that the developer has to pour in to the game development compared to the X360 and the Wii.

LOL, even the Windows SDKs (API, DirectX, .NET etc.) are free (just need to buy a regular copy of the OS). Does the PS3 SDK come with some special hardware that it has to be so expensive or what?!

Let me start by saying I own a PS3, but Sony has completely botched this console up. They charged to much money for everything, couldn't decided if they wanted PS1/2 backward compatibility and oh lets remove the rumble pack for this crappy fake Wii style motion sensing that doesn't really work.

If you want a PS3 wait for Gen2 err... I mean Gen 5 or 6 since we have 4 different versions of the console now.

well can they?

I think this holiday season is going to decide of the fate of this console. If PS3 does not sell, I bet giving away the SDK is not make much of a difference. Who wants to spend millions to create good games for 2 customers?
As far as I am concerned, if PS3 sell good, I'll think about buying one next year with my tax return.

With so much success with the PS and PS2 Sony thought it was untouchable. Became cocky and thought everyone was going to program for them no matter what they charged or how much of a pain it is to use their tools. Guess what....Sony was dead wrong. I am sure they are learning from this and finally got 3rd party help.

It´s not free to offer a SDK, they have to offer suport and so on. Yes the DirectX SDK is free, but so allso is the OpenGL SDK (it´s possible to use on the PS3), the Xbox 360 SDK isn´t free.
The PS3 SDK also inkludes other 3:d party SDK that sony must pay royaltis for, so it is possible to lose money in them
It´s not true generaly that it´s harder to develop to the PS3 than the 360, it´s practicly a myth, the problem is that the 360 SDK is fully copabily to the windows DX SDK (both is microsoft) so it´s just that easyer for develepers to develop för DX first and than later to the PS3 because they with the DX can acces to markets.
By using the OpenGL protocoll develpers is able to develop simultaius to the PS3 and windows (and Mac and Linux to) but microsoft realy push the develpers to use the DX insted... probobly to undermine the competiters

Programming for the cell processor is much much more difficult than for PC, Wii or XBOX 360. Research it. For instance, see Valve's Gabe Newell's remarks:

"Investing in the Cell, investing in the SPE gives you no long-term benefits. There's nothing there that you're going to apply to anything else. You're not going to gain anything except a hatred of the architecture they've created...I don't think they're going to make money off their box. I don't think it's a good solution."

Please do a little research before you go trying to sound authoritative. And give a spellchecker a shot too.

Lets face it, Sony, Microsoft, Apple, and the restaurant down the street are all out to make a buck. Love it or hate it, they have stockholders (or other entities) they have committed to making a reasonable return on investment. It's pretty clear that Sony's strategy isn't working nearly as well as planned, but that is business, they overestimated the market’s wishes. Enough with backing up Sony, they have done a great job pissing off potential customers.

$20k for a piece of highly technical software integrating code from assorted 3rd parties with a relatively small "audience" isn't bad at all. Engineers and other technical professions routinely use software costing many tens of thousands of dollars, its just part of business. While giving away the software would appear to be a way to drive early adoption of a platform, you have to ask your self “would the major development studios that Sony desperately needs to get on board forgo a chance to develop games in a potentially lucrative sector over a license that only adds a few percent to the final cost of the 1st gen games.” Small independent studios add variety to a console’s lineup and are most affected by costs like this, but no one anticipates them to be a major force early in the lifecycle when even the big boys are still feeling things out. Now the console is maturing, business is slacking, and changes are inevitably going to be made. This is an interesting tidbit of trivia, but barely news worthy

Xbox360's XNA is $99 a year not including visual studio which is about $500. So let's say $600 for XBox.

Wii is $1700

Meaning Sony is charging way too much money for there SDK.

I would post links but the last time I tried it rejected me. However if you want prof just google it.

XNA isn't what say EA would use to create games. It's more for home/startup's. I think you'd find the industrial SDK is a lot more.

I believe it includes a special dev version of the PS3 which has extra debug features for testing.

Of Sony losing this round of console wars...

For serious developers, a 20k price tag is not that dramatic, but it is still steep... but so is the 10k tag. I don't think they'll really attract that many more developers for that price tag. The price drop seems to favor quantity of games vs. quality, and I don't think they're gonna win this round with that approach. The PS3 is just too danged expensive to attract casual gamers, so the casual game makers wouldn't be enticed anymore by the lower cost of consoles I think.

With the consoles becoming full blown PCs in the last couple of rounds, I'm not that keen on seeing everyone and their brother having access to the tools. You'd need to also a virus scanner etc for your console!

Dudes, if you think 10k is expensive for an SDK, try Blizzards World Of warcraft SDK-Engine package for a hundred grand. twenty grand just isnt much to pay for that kind of stuff, really. and ten grand is a helluva incentive to use it. You need to understand that the SDK has tools that simplify the whole programming on the Cell, and new revisions come out pretty often. It sure beats punchin 1s and 0s into a computer.

i dont believe that the price of an sdk would make a difference at all for the ps3. a company will pay the price for an sdk if the market is there, the problem is the market is not there. I own a ps3, its a great console i think its better than xbox360 and wii (but thats my opion) the only problem is that there are no games for it and i believe that if things keep going the way they are there will never be any good games for ps3. what sony needs to do is get there hands dirty, team up with a game developer and make a few exclusive games that will make the ps3 worth buying (it will take alot because of the price tag). if a few good games get released, more people will buy the console, other developers will start making some good games and the ps3 may have a chance, special features and things like playstation home can only go so far after all ps3 is a game console if people wanted all that crap and didnt want to play games they would buy a computer. a cheaper sdk is not the issue, companies have the money to develop the games but there not going to invest in a market that is not there. if sony wants to keep the ps3 afloat they got a lot of work to do

The fact that there is still a question of whether this console will succeed, and it will depend on this holiday season if it has any chance to gain momentum is a clear signal that Sony has at the very least finished last in the next gen war. They could still find some mild success with the PS3 if they can have another price drop in the next year and gain back some 3rd party development but they are way too far behind the Wii and 360 to become the household fixture that the PS2 was. Even if they start to gain some momentum this holiday it most likely will be short term and even if extraordinary sales (which would take a huge exclusive/they don't have) became consistent it would take at least two years to match Nintendo and MS if those two didn't sale a single console from this date forward (which wont happen). There are many reason why supporters say this is the better system and yet ironically these are there very things that have hurt it. Inclusion of Blu-Ray is a perfect example, many people bought it for this very purpose, hurting game sales (lack of games hurt to) and yet many people were unwilling to pay the high price Sony was forced to offer for the inclusion of Blu-Ray. The Cell processor was supposed to make the PS3 the superior console and yet this very same processor has caused headaches for developers who are unwilling to pay out the extra labor hours needed to program the games. Oh well I hope Sony does find some mild success this winter to keep the competition alive and force the prices of games down, but chances are they have finished third in a three horse race.

Reading your post john d makes realized that when PS2 came out people had the same complains. People bought PS2 also because it has a DVD player built in. Developers complained a lot about the emotion engine and how hard it was to develop on PS2. However, the competition was not as good. If I remember well, XBOX came out after PS2. But I think most of all the price, even if it was higher than usual for PS2, was still acceptable. I think Sony killed PS3 by ignoring the competition especially today when games gets release on all the platforms. And most of all by selling the console at such a high price. The idea they had that buying PS3 is an investment for 10 years could not work because this industry (also influenced by the PC/hardware/gaming industry) has used its customer to buy a new hardware every 4-5 years.Finally, one last thing that makes me question the need for ultra powerful console in general (as opposed to simpler system like the Wii) is that great games with great story and incredible graphics take forever to develop and last 10 hours...? TOO SHORT! So what's left? sports game and racing games, platform. I think you see where I am going. If I have to play this type of game I'd rather do it on a system that is fun like the Wii.

Cheers,

E-k.

1. Even the 360's and Wii's dev kits aren't free.

2. We are talking here of a dev kit, not a simple SDK or API. Dev kits contains tons of other programs, debugger, perf profiler, test kits, etc. that could/would be used in the development of a game.

3. DirectX and .NET SDK and other API's are just that. They are simply libraries that contain only documentation on the methods and objects available and the compiler and/or debugger. These include just the bare utilities also these SDK's are paid for one way or the other (Windows OS sales, etc).

4. When you e-mail Microsoft or the other makers of the SDK you aren't on the priority list. You also pay for support.