Why would anyone want to spend almost $100 more on a 200Mhz overclock. Wouldn't they better serve their customers by serving up a K10 for the desktop?

Lol.

While I highly doubt it's possible, at the ~$250 price point, this processor should be competitive with Intel's E8650 and Q6600 offerings. Or you could look at it in terms of CPUs and Mobos (in which case, AMD Mobos are usually cheaper in my experience) and say that this plus a solid $80 Mobo, making the total around $330, should be competitive with some CPU-Mobo combo of Intel's.

ACtually, comparing this to the Q6600 isn't fair really, since it's two cores vs four, but assuming you got an E6750 (~$210) and a good LGA 775 Mobo (~$110) for the same price as this processor (~$250) and a solid AM2 Mobo (~$80), the two should be around the same performance for their price, or so one would hope.

Do I have this right?

It could be "Black Edition" because it is the death of 90nm processor line. Hopefully not the death of AMD.

I'm sorry, AMD, but releasing a played-out core at 3.2 ghz is starting to make you look like Intel did with their Extreme series while you were kicking their butts for the last couple of years. Why the bleepity-bleep-bleep-bleep would you do this when there's an entirely new core architecture that needs to be released and fine tuned? Why?

Maybe, however, this is a good sign. Intel came out with the C2D not too long after flogging the P4 to death. So, maybe we'll see something worthwhile in a year?

I'm just so disappointed that you didn't learn from Intel's mistakes, AMD. Now, go to your room and think about what you've done!

This is unfortunately the only way to go if you want a high-end AMD system between now and when Phenom launches (months away still.) or at the very least until Barcelona launches (and you are willing to have a server chip)

I'm not sure why anybody would be surprised about this. There is no point in holding anything back from their current architecture when they have a completely new one coming out next month (sort of). If somebody already has an AMD board, this would be a valid upgrade (or course its always better performance/$ to get the second fastest processor, the 6000 ), although I would wait for the new arch to come out and the corresponding drop / new procs.

Quad core provides no benefit for gaming, and this 3.2ghz dual core part is the highest clocking part I'm aware of.

Should be ideal for most gamers. Phenom is coming out at Christmas, so, hopefully the black edition will tide gamers over until then.

Ummm, news flash most gamers buy the low end of the class and overclock themselves.

They don't trash their same classed CPU to buy an AND or intel overclocked one.

If intel was in the hrtz war they could do like AMD and simply over clock the C2D to 4.3 or so.

I mean some of you like william, mike etc act as if these are entirely new processors.
It's overclocking and for gamers we do it as opposed to having AMD/Intel do it at their premium price.

The AMD 6000 (basically an overclock) has the equivalent performance of an E4300 overclocked. And is less than the E6400 overclocked.

Please guys do some research and don't make me post the results.

*do some research*

Actually YOU should do some research. Most gamers ***DO NOT*** overclock their CPUs. I've been to a couple of lanparties in my campus and most people did NOT have overclock on their PC. Yea in the gamer segment we find more overclockers than in other areas, but they are still a minority

Also the best performance/$ might the 2nd best (aka 6000 ), still some people want **the best**. If you are upgrading your AM2 system and you want the fastest processor you must go for this black edition.

This is just a marketting release, something to stir the water a bit and keep people interested...

Also AMD is probably making some decent profit out of it... This like the 8800GTX vs 8800Ultra. Is it worth paying 80% more? NO! will some people buy it anyways? YES!

Quad might not help games go faster but it sure will help the OS purrrr.

I now have to dismiss the theory that AMD forces intel to make better quality chips. While that might have been the case wtih C2D, intel chips will have to progressively get faster anyway.

I tried to install XP on a Pentium II 450MHz. Well, let's just say if intel doesn't make faster chips, newer OS will run like they are standing still.

Actually a better video card will improve a gamer's system a 200 mhz increase will not give you a 20% boost like from a 7900 to 8800 gtx.

That's pure BS... Wow I feel like Mopheaus in the first Matrix. "Free your mind Neo!"

Lets examine and then you tell me who is right... (I hope honesty runs deep with you young one)

According to you I guess they have no sales and have just been advertising for years. LOL OMG "at the campus" my arse pal

Look your "couple of lanparties in my campus" does not equate to the vast many sites and books discussing overclocking. Those overclockers aren't doing it to run excel and word. And if you do some actual 'research' you'd find there are plenty of dedicated overclocker.

And those are different people not 10 of us using the same name.

Dell sells overclocked systems
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/32139/135/

Ever hear of Falcon, Ibuypower, Biohazard etc

So answer the following:

1) How are they selling system at unreleased intel/amd speeds?
2) Why would they discuss overclocking in magazines
3) Why would THG post overclocking numbers.
4) Why are mother board rated with overclocking in mind?
5) Why are those top overclocking boards top seller such as the ASUS 965p Deluxe?
6) Why did Nvidia revamp their chipset and advertise a 680I with astromomical overclocking abilities?
7) Why does MSI and gigabyte have so many chip version with different overcloacking features?

Surely they aren't doing this for the few 10, 20, 50 of us overclocker.

I guess this is for fun and no one reads it or tries it. They manufacture probably hundreds of thousands of motherboard for an audience that QP says isn't there and is very small.

After you answer these question, go back and read your post. EXACTLY IT MADE NO SINCE !!!

Its been a mighty fine Cpu for the last 3 months (upgraded from a single core 3400 ). They do need to get on the ball with Phenom. Games dont use 4 cores now, it will be next summer before that starts to take effect. The X4 Phenom at 3Ghz should be out and smoking by then hopefully and at a descent price!

Almost forgot the big one...

FANS, if no one is overclocking why isn't everyone using the stock supplied fans. I mean they're approved for running at advertised speed (which is an overclock speed by the manufacturer ie X2 6000 and now 6400)

And you are full of it to tell me a gamer is gonna abandon lets say an E6400 and drop replace it for the sake of upgrading to an E6700.

You can set the E6400 at an overclocked level past the posted E6700 speed. So why in hell would a gamer choose to buy an E6700 and either let their E6400 collect dust and die. Or spend time selling it on EBAY for under the price of a new OEM. With your thought process I guess the guy with an E6300 would love to get his hands on a used E6400 so he can trash his E6300.

Come on guy...

You've got to agree you made no sense...

Its a marketing launch, basically there is a small niche for this kind of processor and thats what they are aiming for. The large spending in terms of making a big deal of it comes from the fact that this will probably be the last processor for a while until they come out with the new core. Im sure all this was explained in the article though...

While this is clearly insignificant in the grand scheme of things (in terms of health/$$), why shouldn't AMD do this? There is a core market out there who will buy top bin AMD no matter what - this chip probably cost AMD nothing other than the additional effort trying to cherry pick these off of their 90nm production line. AMD get's (milks) an additional 35% revenue with only a 6-7% performance gain over the X2 6000 - why not?

Also this helps set the pricing for Phenoms at a bit higher price when they finally get introduced. AMD has nothing over $170, so they would need the desktop K10's to fill in here - now they have something at $240.

Does any of this make sense from performance standpoint? No... I wonder what the 6400 price/performance will look like on the THG CPU charts... but hey from a business stance, it just goes to show - AMD will try to milk a paying customer just as much as Intel; they are not some "noble" company.

This is not a new processor release, just an improvement of an existing one. AMD doesnt create all those CPUs with a specific speed in mind, they create a whole bunch of em and then find the highest stable clock and label it one level down. i'd think in the long time 90nm processors have been around, they can refine the process enough so that they have enough "cream of the crop" processors to label black edition and sell at a higher price. Of course if the phenom is not ready yet, they will need to release something to keep theyre product fresh.

Another thing, think of the wider community. Gamers and true enthusiasts make up only a minority of total computer and parts sales, how many "normal" people out there do you know who are hanging off buying a computer to wait for phenom and benchmark results to come out? it is true, most peolpe dont care/know enough to research and find out.

Intel is aggressively cutting its dual core to make way for quad core.. What does AMD think they're going to gain by delaying aggressive introduction/pricing of quad core processors? They are already under the gun in market share.. how about aggressively cutting some ATI video card prices.. that might help some..

Calm down, Enlighten. You might have a heart attack from all that stress.

It doesn't matter how many gamers would rather buy a low end chip and overclock because they can't afford this one and overclock it. The thing that matters is that there actually is a small segment of gamers who just want to have the biggest hardware-derived e-peen as possible. AMD is aware of this.

I've seen many "mainstream" gamers (i.e. non-overclockers) opt for the 5600 because it runs at the full DDR2-800 whereas the 6000 only runs at DDR2-750 as the performance of the 5600 with optimal memory usage is very close to the 6000 with gimped memory usage but the extra 200 MHz of raw speed. This probably didn't warrant the price premium before the last significant round of price cuts. I'm interested to see how the Black Edition benchmarks since it is 200 MHz faster than the 6000 in addition to being able to run at the full memory clock speed DD2-800 allows without an overclock.

The $240 price might not be so appealing at first glace depending on how this CPU performs, but if you're a mainstream user who has been planning on building a new computer very soon and does not want to spring for Phenoms, this might be your best move. Probably the only people who should not consider this chip are owners of the 5600 and 6000 , unless you have the spare $240 to burn.

...considering they don't have much to choose from before Barcelona/Phenom.

I agree with those who say it's a market move more than anything. I also think it's a smart move by AMD since it keeps it in focus. In addition, some articles mentioned that it will be a limited production processor anyway.

When it comes to gamers, once again I agree with those that say that most of the gamers do not overclock. However, most of HARDCORE gamers might overclock. In terms of market segments, though, hardcore gamers are simply insignificant.

I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are. You are looking at the high-end gaming systems, while most PC gamers have low-mid range systems. I have been building computers for over 3 years, and while the majority of my clients are not gamers, the few that do come in looking for a machine that will run WoW faster, or play Oblivion without any dropped framerates have no clue what overclocking is.. are they not considered gamers?

Look at the bigger picture. Most gamers are casual gamers. The few that post on hardware/software forums are usually the hardcore who make a hobby of gaming and tweaking computers, but the casual gamers are the bigger market and they do not overclock.

Enlighten do ur research...most of the gamers (not the lan party with 200 peeps) but the ones who play the game for fun in thier home, they do not overclock and most of them dont even know how.
Most of the features on the mobos for OC is for people who want to do it (enthuziasts...ever heard that 1), and thier number grew big time compared to 2-5 years ago and also for custom builds.
as for "Black edition" I would get it to upgrade my box, so I can play pacman without lag and with 750 FPS :)

LOL, stress here??? Me???

I'm not sure what you mean, I look at the OC market differently. OC'ers are many, there are those that can or have a friend that can perform the OCing. And those that don't and simply buy an OC system or part.

How can it be a "small segment of gamers" when you look at reality?

How would a company sustain a business for years on a couple of sales. Do you really think zalman and those many fan companies have been remaining in business on sales to people randomly deciding "My new system could really use a new cpu fan, I think I'll upgrade the stock one for the hell of it".

Come on guys are you serious?

I hope this helps you all:
Some one is either buying a new system or putting together a new system. Why would they ever choose the OEM W/1 year warranty over retail W/3 year?

Price saving is extremely small two precious waranty yrs, unless of course "BINGO!!!" you will be OCing and don't give a damn about the warranty (OEM sell in 1,000 lots).

"It doesn't matter how many gamers would rather buy a low end chip and overclock because they can't afford this one and overclock it."

I'm not sure what you mean by this... As stated this is an OC chip and no room left in it. Technically intel could do the same thing and pump up and get into a clock war.

In which you'd hit the MB wall before CPU wall. Those who seek to educate themselves will no longer throw money away paying premium for other to sell them OC parts.

HOW CAN YOU GUYS KEEP SAYING VERY FEW ARE INTO OCing? You suckers have been OC for years and just didn't know it. Every component CPU, mem, GPU and Gmem is/has been OCed if not by you then on your behalf with your money.

News flash:
1) if you bought an X, XT, XTX, GTX, Ultra etc card
2) DDR2 800
3) AMD 6000, 6400 etc intel e6400, e6600 e6700
etc welcome to the to the OC world.

I mean come one people reach deeper, learn and grow...

First off your terminology is off a true PC gamer is up on tech but wont buy bleeding edge. Many will seek to get the most output of the their affordable components. Hard core gamers are ones blasting high est refresh rates and resolutions as humanly possibly. They either will buy the latest and/or OC everything possible.

Playing games W/included MB card or the best buy $50 special is NOT a true gamer. You're a wanna be that probably defers to a PS2/3 or Xbox(360) and stating "graphics are so much better".

As Willz correctly stated it earlier that I guess keeps going over peoples head.

The processor is released and offered to us as a class of CPU's with speed rated setting by the CPU manufacturer. As an example the E6300, 6400, 6600 and 6700 is a class. There is very little technically different inside of the processor (some specific groups/batches of processors can be OC'ed higher).

The difference in the boxed CPU's between the E6300 and E6400 and E6600 (2 meg more cache) is the fan. Each has a better class of cooling option. Each stepping stone released is an OCed component. With the exception of stripped processors such as the E4300 down graded for lower market.

And lets clear one myth being a system builder makes you nothing more than a person assembling pre-constructed parts and hitting the on switch for those choosing not to attempt it themselves.

So when as this case AMD releases a 6400 processor you the people that are getting their mouth all watery and saying OMG I got to have one. You'd simply be paying AMD for a batch of their same tech OCed.

IMO a true system builder that have a customer come to them shouldn't recommend a person abandon the same classed CPU for a higher OCed one.

And my point was that most gamers (real gamers) would choose to OC an old chip rather than drop in an AMD OC'ed premium upgrade special especially prior to the price war when AMD refused to lower prices.

Okay I admit I'm so so very wrong there is only 10 to 50 OC and we buy up all of the fans, OC friendly MB etc to make it look as if there are more of us.

But wait don't get too happy, please post the number used to back up that OCing is very small.

Have any of you been to the various sites and talked with people?
Do you think THG posted these for a few hundred people? and have been posting it for years...

www.tomshardware.com/2007/01/18/overclocking-guide-part-1/
www.tomshardware.com/2007/02/12/extreme_overclocking/
www.tomshardware.com/2007/01/11/core-2-duo-overtakes-core-2-extreme/
www.tomshardware.com/2006/10/10/cheap_thrills/
www.tomshardware.com/2005/07/25/the_athlon_64_fx_overclocked_to_3_ghz/

Please post your facts where over clocking is a very small number?

Please answer the questions posted as a response to QP.

I'll post the sites, book/mags and you guy get the numbers. Is that a deal?

I guess that vast feedback received for THG to post OC CPU number in the chart was for decorations.

This site has been loaded with OC and tuning information for a very very long time.

www.tomshardware.com/2006/08/02/thg_tuning_test/

"AMD has built overclocking protection for RAM into its new AM2 socket, which means that memory won't run faster than 400 MHz. But Nvidia SLI chipsets offer a workaround for faster memory, and enable the use of higher FSB clock speeds. In our case, we were able to boost the FSB clock rate from 200 MHz to 254 MHz and the aforementioned chipset made the necessary adjustments to permit memory speeds to increase by the same proportion."

Why oh why would Nvidia do this for a mere 20, 50 or 100 of us?

I guess you people are very new here but if your remember articles like
www.tomshardware.com/2000/06/23/overclocking_amd/

This is when OC died a little and then picked up steam.

I remember a mega article that got me my first D805.
THG and a few other sites OC'd that baby past a pent extreme. Saving almost 10 fold the cost. The sites were buzzing not with 10's or 100's it was much much more.

I never said the majority of owners are OC'ers (they should be if they were knowledgeable).

But you guys are coming to a historic OCing discussion site stating we are few. It makes no sense, look into the back ground of this sites and OCing in general.

Again "Free Your Mind Neo's"...

I don't think you can look beyond your own small circle. Even if you go to every overclocking forum on the net and count up all of the users you are going to come up with a couple hundred thousand people. When you look at the total number of PC users in the United States that game you are talking in the tens of millions. Percentage wise overclockers are a small minority. Yes the minority is large enough to keep custom hardware makers selling and of course everyone is going to market their products as "extreme overclocking" but have you ever been to a Fry's and watched the people who buy the stuff, it't all flash and marketing. I would also like to see your numbers on gamers who overclock, your opinion may be skewed because of the sites and news you use. Of course overclockers are going to look like a large group but that is only because they are all attracted to the same places, your average users are not. Either way, there are no hard numbers out there and this can't be proven so you shouldn't act offended by others points of view.

It would also seem that "Enlighten" is forgetting one other small fact. Everything out there from Memory to CPUs to Video cards are NOT in fact OC versions of a lower end model. Check out the system specs yourself on some of that memory or video cards from links earlier. Check out the Specs for the processors. Yes, higher clock speeds might be one part of it, but have you ever noticed that there are also different PARTS included in those higher end items. Higher clocked Memory usually has the ability to get a CAS rating that is higher then lower clocked Memory. Is this achieved only by a higher clock speed? Nope! If that were true then just OCing my memory would allow me to hit the CAS ratings of those faster chips. Doesn't seem to happen. With Video cards those added HARDWARE abilites (better decoders, more ram, more pipelines) seem to indicate that you are not buying a video card that has just been over clocked from the MFG. The same holds true with CPUs. Look at the core specs between different processors... higher amounts of transistors would usually indicate that maybe two processors are not created equal. Hmmm... maybe that is why you can't OC an e6300 to the same level you could OC the e6700. Granted you could over clock the e6300 past the e6700 clock speeds, but at the same time if you OC the e6700 you can take it to speeds the e6300 can't reach. Hmm... if your theory of everyone just buying overclocked parts from the MFG held true then this shouldn't happen. I should only be able to over clock the two of them to the same level if your theory holds true... guess it doesn't.

Also as BG stated earlier, Millions of people are buying computers and or parts each year. Lets say they sell 100 million new computers over the next year (the estimates for new computer sales are actually closer to 125 million just from standard MFGs like HP, Dell, Gateway...) and only 10% of those people are going to OC their stuff. Hmm... that would still be a minority of people, that would still be 10 million people that might like to have OCing articles, that would still indicate that these are people who might have some computer knowledge and are not the average user, and yet I am sure that out of those 100 million people who decide to buy a new machine more then those 10 million are going to want to play games on their machines. But wait... 10 million people would still be enough people to market a product to and make a profit off of... hmmmm... maybe making OCing parts and marketing them to that Minority might be worth it. After all you don't see Alienware selling a few million computers a year, but they still market their product and they still make a profit off selling a few hunderd thousand computers each year.

hahaha calm down enlighten..this isn't beat the geeks..this just an article hehehe.... in any case (since i didn't read all your comments because their too long).. I think only real hardcore gamers overclock but not casual gamers.. casual gamers like students who are still on allowance... yes sometimes we buy OCed products but they are factory OCed. They dont overclock themselves because you lose warranty if you do so.... peace

I agree, most gamers don't overclock. And many of them don't even have a fast computer.
Valve's Steam client does a computer survey, and out of hundreds of thousands of computers, the majority of them were running Radeon 9600's and equivalent, or Geforce 6600's and equivalent.
Those cards are in no ways considered "Fast" in our market today.
Also, the majority of the steam gaming market is still running on either entry-level P4's, or Athon XP's.

There is a clear dividing line between GAMERS and ENTHUSIASTS.

Learn it before you post!

So is AMD's latest round of chips worth it or are they not gonna sell many anymore?

DL, if students are on a tight budget they will overclock especially for projects that require video processing. Overclocking a C2D does not require any fancy factory overclocking, and basically since they are all the same product you just get a cheap one and don't care about voiding your warranty. Your chip won't suddenly die, not if you know what to expect..

Casual gamers also turn into overclockers once they look at the return they can get from their Intel and AMD processors. Overclocking is addictive and these big corporations know this, that's why they clock limit their chips, not clock lock them. I can afford to get another one and I have never destroyed a processor through overlocking, not even a an old Socket 7 K6 or Cyrix MII :) In some cases overclocking gives a massive return as long as you have a decent graphics card and a game that can scale well.

Wow some of you really need to stop posting some of this stuff. But it's awll fun and I hope helps us all learn and get a better understanding of what is going on.

I'll start with BG:
"When you look at the total number of PC users in the United States that game you are talking in the tens of millions"

Ummm very wrong... If there was greater than ten million gamers, the PC market would never ever never hit a lull. Companies would not shun the PC market in favor of consoles.

"I should only be able to over clock the two of them to the same level if your theory holds true... guess it doesn't."

There a thing set by intel called a multiplier. This is an internal limiter to the amount of over clocking that can be done.

The E6300 can't be set past or equal to E6700 because intel set it to 7. The E6400 is set to 8. But its basically the same processors as I stated before.

If I'm wrong then please post the various components within that make the 6600 different from the 6700 as an example.

I shall return when I can take a break...

By the way you guys are responding but I haven't seen answers to the questions. ANSWERS PLEASE...

I had to split my comment. First part:

The multiplier does NOT limit overclocking (atleast not directly). Basically, you determine the clock speed by taking the base FSB (before quad-pumping) and multiply it by the multiplier. In the case of the E6300, the clock speed of 1.86GHz is reached by using a multiplier of 7 at a base FSB of 266mhz (1066MT/s), so 7x266MHz=1.86GHz (I'm not trying to teach you something you already know, but I feel it's important that others understand the discussion as well). This also means that for the E6300 to reach the same frequency as the E6700, you must use a higher FSB. Ex: at 3.0GHz, the E6700 is operating at a base FSB of 300MHz, whereas the E6300 is operating at at a base FSB of 430MHz. Thus the E6300 puts a significantly higher stress on the motherboard/memory than the E6700, at the same frequency. This may prevent the E6300 from reaching it's maximum frequency, and it could therefore appear that the E6700 can reach higher speeds. Even if you had a motherboard/memory combination with no limitation on the FSB, the E6700 would still, on average, reach higher frequencies, due to the selection process at the factory.

Apart from the frequency/multiplier, the E6300 differ from the E6700 by having only half the L2 cache. As a result the E6700 would still outperform the E6300, even if they had the same frequency and FSB.

It is certainly possible for companies to live off only overclockers. Even if overclockers only constituted a few percent of the entire PC market, there would still be enough profit for several companies to enter the market. Look at creative for example. It is estimated that they hold 1-2% of the entire PC sound card market, and that includes low-end creative audigy cards, yet they persevere, and even ASUS is intending to contest creative for that miniscule market.

Most companies that make OC'ing components also make other stuff. Creative has their mp3 players, but since they don't overclock very well, I'm going to leave creative for now. Zalman, for example, makes silent components aswell as OC gear. They PSUs and computer enclosures. They have deals with other companies to deliver cooling components (the x1950pro Ultimate comes to mind, but others use Zalman coolers aswell). OCZ, Corsair, kingston and all the other high-end memory makes all have their value series memory, which I dare say sell a lot more than their enthusiast sector.

Many of the components that are good at OC'ing are also good at low noise cooling. Though I have no proof, I'll go as far as to say that more people buy aftermarket coolers and other supposed "OC gear" to reduce noise, rather than improve performance.

The basic question seems to have been lost in the discussion. As far as I recall, the question was how many gamers that overclock. I cannot present any numbers in that matter, but I too remember the survey done by Valve on their STEAM software, and I think it's compelling indications against your claim that most gamers are aware of overclocking and special overclocking gear. The vast majority of gamers use computers even slower than mine, and no amount of overclocking could possibly bring my cpu anywhere near that x2 6400 . Most gamers are not upgrading from a E6300 to an E6750. They're going from an XP 2800 to an E4400, hardly something you could achieve with "a little tweaking and tinkering".

Like it or not, AMD had to do put out another processor before the K10s come out... In terms of "mainstream" desktop CPUs (non-FX), a spread of ~$105 between the least & most expensive CPUs is way too small and signals a very weak product line. Now the spread increases to ~$165--IMHO still too small, but gives me a teeny bit more faith regarding the solvency of AMD...

I'll try setting the stage again, because some of you fools are lumping everything known to man as a gamer. There's a difference between a true gamer and someone just playing games.

A true PC gamer is up on tech, but not purchasing bleeding edge. And certainly not in the dark ages with his own equipment. Hardcore is buying the best and more than likely tweaking the rest.

True gamers can look at there closets/shelves can pull out games purchased and used a couple of times. We read titles & articles and the mouth starts watering, buy the game only to be burned.

YOU ARE NOT A TRUE GAMER IF YOU ARE:
* using the crappy video chip included with your mother board

* have a 40 to 80 dollar card special from comp usa, best buy etc and its a couple of steps behind a current mainstream processor (ie ati x850 or lower)

* had only 1 of the titles as primary (ages of empire(s) or unreal(s) or quake(s) or star craft or an RPG). And maybe purchased 1 other title like madden over the the same period

* If you sit back and buy games only after they win an awards for the past one to two years (You're relying on real gamer to set the bar)

* If you have to get mom or dads permission to use puter and they limit you to a couple of hours during week and more on the weekend

* If mom or dad needs to talk to sales rep or review game rating and limit you two two new titles a year

* If you fire up your pc game and think my ps(1,22) or xbox looks so much better
* Have a 14 or smaller monitor
* Using AGP or Vesa
* Windows 98se
* Thinking about adding to your 256/512mb ram
* have the same mouse from over 5 years ago
* original keyboard from over 5 year ago

STOP THE MADNESS... I don't give a crap about valve surveys, hell most don't even fill out a registration cards.

If a persons budget is so tight for the past they're using athlon XP and ati 9700 they aren't a gamer. They wouldn't be able to afford 40 and higher new game, let alone have it playable.

"I don't think you can look beyond your own small circle." I actually can, I even clarified my statement several time.

I never said overclockers were the majority. I responded to 'plus' saying this processor "Should be ideal for most gamers.". I can almost guarantee that most gamers aren't mouth watering over this processor and would choose to OC a cheaper model over purchasing this one.

So for every one of you posting and answering nothing try to read and understand.

With the announcement of the future processors. AMD moving to quad and 65nm and hopefully 45nm. A very small number of gamers would upgrade to this processor for gaming. IMO they wouldprefer to OC the processor they have rather than buy the top of the line.

How do I know because when C2D was released the E6700 wasn't the top selling processor at 1000 plus a clip having an equal price to the pentium 4 EE.

If you telling me that I'm wrong then those people would have already upgraded to the best processor a year ago. They would currently have an FX, X2 4200, 4400 etc or C2D.

How and why would they go from the dark ages and think "Damn I'm a gamer I have got to have an AMD 6400".

Why would a gamer do that today in all of this processor turmoil. So please leave the statement within the content of the discussion. I never said OCers out number non OC'ers.

I did later in fact state and standbuy that the number of OC'ers is a lot larger than you line up and claim comparing your lan parties and 18 YO neighbors.

Most OC'ers don't do to FRY and have no reason to meet OC'ers face to face. Again the very site that you're on right now has historically discussed & performed OCing. And received lots of feedback, questions and had to come back with part two's to articles. These aren't people just curious and intrigued by the discussion for well over 5 years and never trying it.

"There is a clear dividing line between GAMERS and ENTHUSIASTS.
Learn it before you post!
SuperK"

"While the term technically includes those who don't necessarily consider themselves to be gamers (i.e., casual gamers) it is commonly used to identify people who spend much of their leisure time playing or reading about games."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamer

Just as stated most casual gamers don't consider themselves gamers. Technically they are the vast majority of gamers set the bar much higher than that technical term of anyone playing a game is a gamer.

If a guy comes up to you saying he's a hard core gamer. You inquire "what games do you play? what system do you have". And he then responds oh I'm using my sega genusis playing madden and a couple of other games. You'd laugh in my face.

By the same token with the games that are out you can't possibly believe someone packing an ati 9600 is a true gamer.

And you ask me to learn before posting. get real...

Talk about responses not having to do with the original article...

It seems that all of enlightens posts, especially regarding "A true PC gamer" do nothing but further the point that overclocking PC gamers are a minority. I believe this is what his main debate was about.

There are many people who game on a daily basis who use pre-built systems and even laptops that lack the BIOS to overclock. Are these people not considered "A true PC Gamer"? I would think that they are the majority of people who keep the software companies in business.

If overclocking gamers numbered so many wouldn't there be more retail locations to pick up the products? I don't know a single overclocker that gets his hardware from a retail location. This just shows that the market is too small.

No matter the quantity of your posts enlighten perhaps you should take the blue pill and back off of your entire argument of "Ummm, news flash most gamers buy the low end of the class and overclock themselves.".

Azured... I know but was trying to have the convo on a higher level. I could post that stuff but to an audience that thinks a 9600 is a true gamer would be ridiculous and always who knows nothing about OCing.

I had already stated "There is very little technically different inside of the processor (some specific groups/batches of processors can be OC'ed higher). The difference in the boxed CPU's between the E6300 and E6400 and E6600 (2 meg more cache) is the fan."

I could go into the various cores such as the Allendale core, Conroe B2

I could tell say a 3ghz 200 and X15 would be slower than a 3ghz 400 tunning at x10. But it would fly way over.

I do have some bad news for you pal
"Zalman, for example, makes silent components aswell as OC gear."

There is no way in hell zalman is producing hundreds of thousand of various fans not to sell them. They company is not going to say "We got PSU that we make a profit, lets get rid of our profit by making hundreds of thousand of those fans only a few will buy."

Come on guy...

"Though I have no proof, I'll go as far as to say that more people buy aftermarket coolers and other supposed "OC gear" to reduce noise, rather than improve performance."

Okay so Johnny plugs in his new system saying "Damn I love my new system, but the fan is a bit loud. I think I'll replace my stock CPU and replace it with a double price one"

Come on man, your post was doing so well until you went there... You can't really believe people are buying double and triple the cost fans so they can reduce noise do you?

"Look at the core specs between different processors... higher amounts of transistors would usually indicate that maybe two processors are not created equal." Bob

I looked at the core specs of the E6300, E6400, E6600 and E6700. I can't seem to find a higher transistor count between them.

I explained several times my understanding of same classed processors. Please post the transistor difference oh great one... Because I can't find where I said something wrong about that.

There are different named cores, but those in a class of CPU's are very similar.

But I would love for you and other to answer the questions posed to QP in response. And where in the hell did QP go? LOL

"Look at the bigger picture. Most gamers are casual gamers." RYU

Please read above, casual gamers are not really considered gamers in the realm of our terminology even thought technically any game player is a gamer.

I'm still waiting on posted answers to the following:

1) How are they selling system at unreleased intel/amd speeds?
2) Why would they discuss OC in magazines
3) Why would THG post OC numbers for over seven years
4) Why are mother board rated with OCing in mind?
5) Why are those top OCing boards top seller such as the ASUS 95b Deluxe?
6) Why did Nvidia revamp their chipset and advertise a 680I with astromomical OCing abilities?
7) Why does MSI and gigabyte have so many chip version with different OCing features?
8) Why would they ever choose the OEM W/1 year warranty over retail W/3 year? when the price difference is minimal
9) FANS, if no one is OCing why isn't everyone using the stock supplied fans.
10) Why oh why would Nvidia put thing in place to override AMD attempt to lock the memory. Why go through the trouble for a small minority of gamer?

At least Azured took a poke at it no matter how silly it sounded LOL they want quiet fans, quiet MB, quiet chipset, the mags and web sites are really not there for OC'ers. It's so that the masses can immediately identify the quietest parts to purchase. The ASUS 95B was the top selling board because it was quieter and people just couldn't wait to get their hands on it. LOL OMG you guys kill me...

I'll take a nap and make sure I hit everyone later, I've been up 41 hours str8 (please excuse me for the typos as usual, thanks).

"By the same token with the games that are out you can't possibly believe someone packing an ati 9600 is a true gamer.

And you ask me to learn before posting. get real..."
Enlighten

Please PLEASE learn before posting, for the last time!

Fact: You can still play Starcraft on a P II 300MHZ and compete with tens to hundreds of thousands of people online
Fact:An ATI 9600 is still sufficient power to play the Half-Life/Counter-Strike Series.
Fact: You can still hook up your Super Nintendo and play some of the best games to be created
Fiction: You have to have the LATEST hardware to be considered a "true gamer."
Fiction: You have to have the LATEST games to be considered a "true gamer."

From Wiki:
"This type of gamer [Hardcore Gamer] prefers to take significant time and practice on games, in contrast to a casual gamer. Many hardcore gamers pride themselves on mastering the rules or use of a game, although this is not a strict requirement.

What does this have to do with the original topic?

GAMERS play GAMES. And they build their systems to play the GAMES they WANT to play. If they want to play Oblivion, they need a MONSTER system! If they play World of Warcraft, they need a MEDIOCRE system! If they play Starcraft, they need GRANDMA's system!
But they're still GAMERS

ENTHUSIASTS build computers to derive the most potential out of their system. Whether they do video encoding, audio or just out of plain hobby, they push their equipment to the max.

There is a clear dividing line between ENTHUSIASTS and GAMERS. Learn it before posting!

In my opinion gamers are not people with specific hardware. If you belive that, then I think the reason we don't agree is because we have different views of what makes a pc gamer. I personally belive that whether you're a pc gamer or not is not a question of what hardware you've got, but a question of your mentality. Even people who play old games that doesn't require powerful hardware (like CounterStrike, based on Half life 1) can be gamers in my opinion.

quote:
I could tell say a 3ghz 200 and X15 would be slower than a 3ghz 400 tunning at x10. But it would fly way over.
/quote
While you are technically speaking correct (disregarding the fact that 400x10 is 4GHz, not 3 GHz), in reality very few applications (let alone games) can make use of the higher FSB. And that question hardly matters anyway, since, as I said, most people don't upgrade within one architecture. Instead they upgrade from one architecture to another (athlon x2 to core 2 for example).

quote:
There is no way in hell zalman is producing hundreds of thousand of various fans not to sell them. They company is not going to say "We got PSU that we make a profit, lets get rid of our profit by making hundreds of thousand of those fans only a few will buy."
/quote
I never said that. If you believe I said that, then I suggest you go back and read my comment, as you seem to have completely missed the point. What I was trying to convey was that most companies in the OC business are also making a profit on other things than OC gear, thus they are not entirely dependant on sales to people who OC, contrary to what you have said earlier.

Quote:
Come on man, your post was doing so well until you went there... You can't really believe people are buying double and triple the cost fans so they can reduce noise do you?
/quote
I'm gonna use your own logic on that one: Your argument earlier was that there exists sites dedicated to OC'ing, so there must be people who OC. That is in essence your argument, right? That's atleast the impression I get from reading the seven questions you posted earlier.
In general:
If there exists sites dedicated to something, then there exists a market for that something.
So, as there exists sites dedicated entirely to silent computing (silentpcreview.com for example), there must be a market for silent computing.
So of course there exists people who are willing to spend 3 times more on a fan than other people. OC'ers do that aswell. Look at the scythe S-flex series, for example. The 800RPM and 1200RPM versions are both near silent, and they cost 5-6 times more than a standard case fan.

"You can't really believe people are buying double and triple the cost fans so they can reduce noise do you?"

Well, actually, I spent over $400 buying a water cooling setup just so I could have near-silent operation. The fans on the triple-120mm-fan radiator are all temperature controlled and the pump is enclosed in noise reducing sheeting and on isolated rubber mounts. And yet, my computer is not overclocked. I want it silent, not killer-fast.

So yes, people do spend extra money just to make their system quieter. You also seem to have forgotten people with media centre PCs. Everyone wants them to be dead silent. I spent close to $90 on a huge, near silent CPU heatsink for my media centre.


To discuss the overall topic: Yes there are gamers out there who overclock! I absolutely agree! BUT, most gamers don't, usually because they don't know how or don't even know you can. Why then aren't they all buying the high-end equipment? Because it's too expensive! I know lots of people who play PC games far more than casually who wouldn't know what overclocking means, let alone how to do it.

real gamers doesn't need to have the best PCs..they only need specs good enough to get stable FPS on good quality settings..heck World Cyber Games PCs here are equipped only with 8600 GTs

hardware are made for games... not games are made for hardware..

real gamers don't need to OC when they have what they need (from buying high end stuffs like these and Core 2s)

but yes there are SOME that push everything beyond limit.. and of course you can call them real gamers too.. but they don't represent the majority..and they don't define who the real gamers are... heck there are gamers who still play on single core like Athlon 64s, after all they still deliver some decent performance in most games

So, it would seem we have found the reason for the discrepancies. Let me examine you definition of a gamer (I'm gonna pick a few out to save space):
quote:YOU ARE NOT A TRUE GAMER IF YOU ARE:
* using the crappy video chip included with your mother board /quote
So, if I were the best CS player in the world, and because I didn't bother with other games, I'm using an old pc with a GMA950, I'm not a gamer? Despite the fact that I got to tournaments, write on forums, and play games most of the day?

Quote: * have a 40 to 80 dollar card special from comp usa, best buy etc and its a couple of steps behind a current mainstream processor (ie ati x850 or lower) /quote
Even large retailers can sometimes make a good offer. And even a x800 can still offer a decent gaming experience. I make do with a xp 3000 , 1GB RAM and a x800xl, and I've yet to find a game that requires more to be playable (except for a splinter cell game and lost planet that require SM3.0, but the controls sucks anyway, so I'll do fine till I buy a new pc)

quote:* If you sit back and buy games only after they win an awards for the past one to two years (You're relying on real gamer to set the bar) /quote
Many games get rewards and reviews before they are released to the public. If that's your opinion, then barely anyone in the world can claim to be gamers.

quote: * If you have to get mom or dads permission to use puter and they limit you to a couple of hours during week and more on the weekend /quote
I agree it may be difficult to keep up your gaming, if you're limited to, for example, 1 hour a day, but even parents buy gamer PCs (my parents bought a pc with a C2D, 2GB RAM, and a 7950GT a few months ago for my younger brothers), and if they limit you at 4-5 hours a day that can still be enough to satisfy a gamer.

Quote:* Using AGP or Vesa /quote
AGP is not slow at all. It corresponds roughly to a PCI-e x8 interface (it's certainly faster than PCI-e x4), and carries bandwith enough for a x1950XT. AGP is dying, but I don't see any reason why you can't be a gamer on dying tech.

Hey Stabby please try reading.

My responses were just that responses to people and not the article. As I stated before "I never said overclockers were the majority. I responded to 'plus' saying this processor "Should be ideal for most gamers.". I can almost guarantee that most gamers aren't mouth watering over this processor and would choose to OC a cheaper model over purchasing this one."

Can you understand that? Still too deep?

Can you understand the statements when E6300 to E6700 was released. A gamer wanting the E6700 would rather buy a lower model and over clock rather than purchase the top of the premium price model.

That doesn't imply that ALL GAMERS OVER CLOCK...

CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT???

IT IS A RESPONSE TO THIS PROCESSOR BEING PERFECT FOR GAMERS. As stated most gamers DON'T stay on the bleeding edge of tech. (mind numbing...)

Response went to the discussion of OC being this minute number in the gaming community.

If you do an application break down I would say the majority of over clockers are gamers. You don't OC to run word or excel or internet browse.

You're either editing/creating audio or video, gaming or some other small reason.

"If overclocking gamers numbered so many wouldn't there be more retail locations to pick up the products?"

Oh ok genius every product that you can't walk down to the local store and get is not mainstream. The vast majority of ATI and Nvidia can't be purchsed at stores. So I guess gamers are as low as OCers very minute. You can't walk in most stores and get the latest intel chips from the local retail outlets. Comp usa and a couple other stores didn't carry DDR2 800 or higher I guess no one is using those. In fact compusa still sells amd duron so I guess thats the process I should get since retail is the drives everything.

damn... "what is a true gamer" is a joking post... created to poke fun...

My point was to state my opinion of what a true gamer is. Someone actively following games coming out and the commitment to the gaming market in general.

They are the ones that make the gaming world go around. Otherwise if everyone just played AOE forever then what would be the point of new development? we'd have no new games because everyone would settle in and never move on.

If you play one game for years and years you are technically a gamer in fact they have a team for it called 'retro gamer'.

But again you're not actively participating in the growth of games. Duke nukem forever never disappointed you because you would have never gave it a chance anyway, the saga with prey coming going and coming would never hit your radar. call to duty any newly anticipated game is not on your radar because you've maxed out.

I hope you can realize this is all my opinion, I own nothing, decide nothing and it is truly meaningless because at the end of the day we all have opinions and will always agree to disagree. There isn't a uniform body to decide this stuff.

His opinion is that gamers will flock to this chip, my opinion is a gamer would rather buy a lower chip and OC it.

The post "What is a true PC gamer" was a Hyperbole...

" is a mispronunciation) is a figure of speech in which statements are exaggerated. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, and is not meant to be taken literally.

Hyperbole is used to create emphasis. It is often used in poetry and is a literary device as well as a referendum."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

And Bob was your find that elusive transistor count difference between E6300 to E6700.

Please send it to THG and other sites that have been wrong.

"Low-cost processors have always lent themselves well to overclocking in the past. This is because all processors in a given family are created equal. Each wafer holds a few hundred processor dies, which, after going through functional tests, are turned into actual products. Whether a die becomes a Core 2 Duo E6500 or E6700 processor mostly depends on customer demand today. Since entry-level processors originate from the same source as that of high-end devices, they usually have the same overclocking potential as well.For entry-level Core 2 Duo devices with only 2-MB instead of 4-MB L2 cache, we might not be able to replace the missing cache, but we can certainly increase the clock rate."

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/10/10/cheap_thrills/index.html

And this was one hell of an article that I guess everyone looked at and yarned because there are hardly any OC'ers on this historic OC discussing site.

Please post your system setup...

CPU, mem, video card, type of case and PSU?

OEM processor or retail?

I'll hold my comments until I see what you have, because on the outset your post seems very wacky.

My statement isn't to say one sucker wouldn't do it. It's more about the hundreds of thousands of them sold.

Please post thanks

Darn right I buy components for quietness. I bought the Scythe Ninja so I could get a quiet system. I wayyy over spent on the Antec P180 case for all of the sound reducing qualities. I went with the Barracuda 7200.10 hard drives because they're known to cause less noise (when I bought it...quieter drives out now).

But the point is...this processor does not fit in any of the above categories:

Hardcore (wants the fastest possible processor) - Gets a Intel C2D Quad Extreme
Enthusiast (best bang for buck/will overclock) - Gets an Intel E6450 for overclocking
Retail (Price is king) - C2D E4300 series or lower end X2's
Super low end (Idiots) - Pentium D, Duron, Celeron

Where does this processor fit? Oh I know, one category:

Hardcore AMD fanboy - Buys Black Edition

Some one is gonna write that I'm discussing nothing to do with the article again even though I'm simply responding. To those of you I say stuff a sock in it!!!

The discussion is not about do people want quiet computers. And you guys are all over the place.

I asked him to post his system because you'd be a complete idiot to water cool an AMD 3800 or 4200, E6300 over the other fan offerings and NOT OC. An absolute FOOL to spend over 3 times the value of your processor to have "extreme silence" inside the case and call yourself a damn gamer.

Since the fan noise is just killing you then I guess you game with your sound off. And if your playing quake, UT or any other top game in extreme silence (exception the deaf) then there is no way you're a true gamer. I can't ever believe that a true gamer is worrying about the minuet amount of fan noise while he/she's gaming. NO 'F'ing WAY!!!

And don't freaking post "I know people that play chess daily, chess is a silent game", hell I play chess, but IMO if that's the only game I play then I'm not a true PC gamer.

Since the Core architecture is new, Intel has a lot of headroom. Lots of room for improvement. It's a good reason why it OC's so well.
The A64 architecture is very mature. I doubt they've done much to "tweak" the A64 6400 since the 6000 design-wise.

My speculation is this chips is the "Cream of the Crop" of their generation. Probably hand picked chips that are capable of handling higher frequencies over the others.
Since not all processors come off the line with the same stability, I'm going to guess this new chip is simply hand picked.

I am going to guestimate that this new chip will be quite good on brute math compared to it's older siblings. Athlon64's, being originally so lower-clocked than it's competition, fell very far behind in brute-force mathematical operations, such as folding@home projects, where the old Netburst completely dominated.
possibly, this chip being higher clocked and large cache might give this old faithful architecture a little more fresh air to those who need it.

Quote (Enlighten):
As I stated before "I never said overclockers were the majority.
/quote

Quote (Enlighten):
Ummm, news flash most gamers buy the low end of the class and overclock themselves.
/quote

I rest my case.

quote
The discussion is not about do people want quiet computers. And you guys are all over the place.
/quote
They're only responding to what you/I wrote. exactly like you claim to only have responded to somebody elses post.

I live in a town of 40,000. 30% have computers. 50% of the thirty percent are on the internet. All the people I know have overclockable MoBos and CPUs.
Guess what. None overclock! None! Nada! Zilch.

It's about time that AMD stops ignoring african americans.

Cespenar thank you for information on your town.

QP thank you for posting information about your two lan party groups

W T F does that have to do with the masses...

Cespenar post your town and your source for these numbers 40,000 people. blah blah blah

Please post your towns web site or news paper article where EVERY was asked and responded.

"None overclock! None! Nada! Zilch." will then be very believable

Damn, maybe this is one of those trick post...

Maybe the answer to this mess is that the people you actually know in your town is "None! Nada! Zilch".

caught-cha!!! you tried to pull a fast one. Either that or you're more clue less than imaginable...

Thanks Azured,

I needed confirmation about something on you, this helps.

Ummm I guess this flew over your head. I further clarified the meaning of my statement.

That quote "Ummm, news flash most gamers buy the low end of the class and overclock themselves.

They don't trash their same classed CPU to buy an AND or intel overclocked one."

Is there any chance that you can NOT take words out of context. Can you put these two sentences together?

Further more can you read the clarification? later on or are you that brain dead?

I stated and restated what I meant. NO 'F'ing place in that statement says all or the majority of gamers over clocked.

I'll try this again "Should be ideal for most gamers." this isn't true because most gamers aren't on the bleedging edge as pointed out so many time in this post. Did you catch that? understand?... My response was that most gamers would rather OC a lower end same classed chip then but this one for gaming.

The only other choice left is that most gamers would do neither. Which all of these are? exactly opinions...

Use the thing between your ears pal. PLEASE I know it's hard but give it a try...

here here dave,well said

Sorry Pal! I couldn't resist! :)

Nobody really cares whether people do or do not overclock. The fact that you are so combative about this topic discredits you as a biased fanatic! Your language and arguments are degrading and juvenile, so please lighten up and stop being the argument-starter! That being said...
I'm a gamer, and have been for plenty of years. I overclock my system, but only to see how far I can push it safely and reliably! When I'm benchmarking, I try it OC'd and not OC'd. When I'm gaming, I don't overclock because I prefer to see what my system does on it's own merit!
Now, about AMD, the 6400 will be a tried and proven piece of silicon that has passed AMD's stringent testing, therefore it should be able to be pushed further when OC'd than the 6000. This is not always the case, but anytime a processor of a specific core-type comes out with a different, higher clock speed, it is being clocked up, and there is a certain tolerance within the testing of that processor during the R&D stage that must be met. These requirements are what keep AMD or Intel from selling processors that are running at the brink of burn-out to their customers.
Bottom line- Stop whining. If you're gonna buy it; buy it. If not, don't patronize the other guys. Thanks,
Buy

As I was about to type in my comments, I noticed that I'm not the only one who realizes "Enlighten" does indeed need to be enlightend.

In lamen terms, what the last reviewer (Buy), just said is that the same core is built with greater heat tolerance, by using special chemical compounds and metals, giving it more structual integrity. The fact of the matter is AMD would loose out on money if they just sold a processor that runs more efficiently without actually improving its clock speed, unless it's a whole new core. For those that aren't in tune with physics or chemistry, any metal exposed to heat expands, therefore if you heat the processor enough, eventually you will cause those tiny little metal circuits that run parallel to each other to either touch or disintegrate, causing it to short circuit and burn out....UNless of course you have a metal or chemical compound that better resists the kind of heat that an overclocked processor emanates. Enough said about that,....I have the X2 5600 version and I want the best in the AM2 chipset so I "DO" want the 6400, and hopefully the phenom will be backward compatible. Another thought, considering AMD is about 7 times smaller than Intel (financially for this Quarter), they're competing with a real giant. Until AMD debuts their integrated CPU and GPU, they will have to sacrifice many or their resources including money, time, and engineers to put into that project, I really think that's why it's costing them now.

Think

Much as I love 'em, AMD hasn't been in the black for a while.

I currently have the 5200 CPU in my system, purchased when the X2 6000 was still hovering in the $400 range. Since the Phenom is still off in the future, and I've got all the latest goodies like Asus Crosshair, 4 GB Corsair PC 800 4-4-4-12 memory, 4 WD 10,000 rpm ADFD drives in RAID 0, and Vista Busines x64, would you consider the Black Edition a worthwhile upgrade for the money?

Let me know.

Thanks!

Quote:I needed confirmation about something on you, this helps./quote
It's getting more and more obvious that you are simply trolling, and I don't like to "feed the troll".

Quote:
Further more can you read the clarification? later on or are you that brain dead?
...
Use the thing between your ears pal. PLEASE I know it's hard but give it a try...
/quote
There is no reason to resort to arguments ad hominem. I was hoping for a mature discussion, but it seems I'm out of luck here. This is the end of the discussion for me. I simply will not tolerate it.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...it=ENE&N=2 50001028 40000343 1389627502&name=Desktop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Athlon_64_microprocessors
Here on newegg you can judge the popularity of the different AMD processors, and on wikipedia you can see their launch dates. The x2 6000 which has only been out for 5 months is about as popular as the x2 5200 which has been out for 10 months. So I'd say that this x2 6400 will be popular, but probably not as much as the x2 6000 is now because of its 35% premium over the next best, the x2 6000. By the way, from newegg's prices the x2 6000 has a 13% premium over the next best x2 5600.

Enlighten: True gamer? Seems to me overclocking a lower priced chip to a higher end speed has more to do with money than games. Please don't yell at me :o

Aymincendiary, I'd wait for the phenoms. I don't think upgrading from your 5200 to a 6400 would be worthwhile ($) when considering that you'll be able to buy a next generation processor in 3-4 months. Sweet system by the way.

How many games use multiple cores? I know of two Quake IV and FSX SP1. That aside along with the multi-core hype with not real current benefits this AMD processor seems like a good price to performance ratio. Can't beat Intel's top of the line but can certainly get close for considerably less money.

I have to agree, the main stream market isn't top end -- it's medium to low end -- why? Because it costs less money and that always IS the bottom line to the mass market consumer.

Does Intel need to worry, no! Will this keep AMD live, I sure hope so because without competition you end up with the same results as Microsoft produced from WinXP to Vista after 5 years of doing nothing. Competition drives innovation and reduces consumer prices -- anyone that comes to the table with brand loyalty is retarded or doesn't understand the most basics of economics.

I have a 6000 now and I used to own a 4200 . I see maybe, and I mean maybe, a 15% increase in power during game play. Not much to brag about... so there's no way in bloody hell I am going to upgrade my 6000 to a 6400 to see maybe a 5% increase in power, and yet that chip will cost a $100 more. I say save your money and go for a higher end video card. That's where you will see a big difference, but not in the CPU.

Clearly you are not 'enlightened' as you cannot continue a discussion without bad-mouthing anyone. Azured is right about 2 things: for him to get out of the discussion, and for you being a troll.

Am I a gamer? I believe so. Play a so much my wife complains about it. Do I have the latest, greastest, 'bestest' uber-super-duper system? No. Why? I can't afford it. I live in a third world country, where not all parts are available, and those that are cost nearly twice as much. Do I OC? I wanted to, but then I thought, if I bust my system, it won't be covered by warranty, and then I won't have the money to buy a replacement. Do I play the latest games? I wish. But since my system is only a two-year old 939 A643K Venice with a GFX 6600, I can't. For those that I really want to play, I'd have to tone down the settings 'a bit.' So for the most part I play those that I would enjoy the most for the settings that my system would allow.

But in your opinion, I'm not a real gamer, am I? Not even if my marriage is about to suffer because of it. I'm not a real gamer because I don't make a 'commitment to the gaming market' by buying every release a publisher makes. Because I can't afford it. Because I don't OC.

I can't help but find a flaws in a lot of your logic. One is that since you point to a lot of sites that discuss OC'ing there must be lots of OC'ers out there.

Sure there are lot of OC'ers, not the 10, 20, 50 people that you think 'a minority' means. 10% of 100 million is still 10 million, but are they still a minority!

And then there is 'show me your facts to prove it' kind of thing, and yet when someone quotes Valve's Steam, you say 'you don't give a crap.' Very intelligent.

I'd like to say more but I have work to do. Don't even bother to respond as this is my first and last post. Clearly no amount of reasoning will get to you as you are so 'enlightened.'

The majority of DFI boards, the mid to high end Asus, Abit and gigabyte motherboards are all marketed to Gamers, and enthusiasts. They all boast about the extensive overclocking features, Gigabyte and Abit both 5.25 bay devices that control fan speeds, and allow you to adjust voltages, clock speeds, and multipliers. Boards that are marketed for gamers are the boards that use the highest quality parts.

The Fatality line of boards, by Abit..Designed by a pro gamer...for the purpose of stability when over clocking. Also it should be noted that the majority of gamers a few years ago considered their P4's to be better gaming rigs then the 939 AMD chips.

People that opt to go out and spend $1200 on the latest flagship CPU from either AMD or Intel are either lazy, uninformed, or just love to show off. Back when the FX-60 came out, with it's $1200-1400 price tag and people were bragging about having them, and being able to nudge them up to 3.1ghz using a WC setup and how amazing Oblivian ran, i just had to laugh.

I get easily addicted to the newest and shiniest games that come out, but i only upgrade my comp every 2 years or so. So silly me, i did research, scanning hundereds upon hundereds of forum posts made by gamers that :::gasp::: overclock. I ended up getting a 165 opteron, which has the sad stock speed of 1.8ghz, yet it has the exact same core (toledo) as the FX-60. I paid $270 for the chip off ebay, the only way to ensure a good stepping. #200 for an x1800xtx Video card, $180 for a DFI LP NF4 Dr.Expert mother board, and already had 2gigs of OCZ GE VX PC4000 ram, rated to run up to 3.5v without voiding warrenty. $200 for a lian-li PC-G70 full server tower case, (as well as a SCSI raid card with 256mb ($50) of memory, 4 18gig 15,000 RPM drives ($20 each) and 4 74gig 10,000 RPM drives ($12 each) off ebay). Just over $1000 for my ENTIRE system, which ended up clocking at 3.27ghz with air cooling, and 630mhz ram running 2-2-2-5.

Overclockers fall into one of two categories, people trying to break speed records, who do truely insane things that would not allow for daily extended use of the system. And gamers. The first group is really rather small.

Go to extremeoverclocking.com take a look at the thousands of members there. Choose any given hardware thread, and they are all focused around performance gains in high end games. Expensive processors are for people that don't have time, don't know how, or require a guarenteed clock speed. IE, machines used for work, video editing, Graphic rendering, Audio editing, and people that want to brag about the fact that they wasted an obscene amount of money on a cpu that will be overshadowed by the next release in a few months, or something that cost 1/10th the price the day after they get it. The more you pay, the less room you have in OC potential.

Then of course there are the water cooled video cards, ATI's of course having an overclock utility BUILT INTO THE DRIVER PACKAGE.

The majority of overclockers ARE GAMERS. To say that gamers don't OC because the 11-14 year olds don't know how, and make up the majority of gamers is plain ignorant.

ISeeFractals great post but as you'll read in here no one OCs. The number is so small it would take us to a year to find a third OC'ers on this site LOL

It's me and you bud... The lone OC'ers everyone else is just buying the the top OCing MB, Fans and cases for the hell of it.

As Azured said the gamers just want quieter systems. And Cespenar even backed that up by getting $400 water cooling system for his non top of the line processor because the fan noise while gaming bothered him so.

This post may be the funniest I've ever been involved with.

I'm sorry Thundermane and Azured, I didn't know you were from third world countries and as such your command of the USA english is a little off.

I'll help you...

"Clearly you are not 'enlightened' as you cannot continue a discussion without bad-mouthing anyone."

In my country when you say 'we can agree to disagree' the discussion is pretty much over. I ended a post saying "I hope you can realize this is all my opinion, I own nothing, decide nothing and it is truly meaningless because at the end of the day we all have opinions and will always agree to disagree. There isn't a uniform body to decide this stuff."

"I can't help but find a flaws in a lot of your logic. One is that since you point to a lot of sites that discuss OC'ing there must be lots of OC'ers out there." Ummmm I'm still looking for the flaw, unless you look at the sites were people ::gulp:: post there current OC system you have no clue. Understand? if you go to OC sites and the poeple post their processor, cooling, case and OCing speeds then damnit I'd think they was really OCing. DUH!

"10% of 100 million is still 10 million, but are they still a minority!" Thanks for the information I think, was this a question or statement? if question then the answer is 'yes'. I was taught that 49% and lower is the minority, maybe you can use this little bit of information in the future. But if you must insist on using the 10 million number be my guest.

"And then there is 'show me your facts to prove it' kind of thing, and yet when someone quotes Valve's Steam, you say 'you don't give a crap.' Very intelligent." Again can my words stay in context?

What did I want facts on? and was valve stem the answer? I see you're picking up where Azured left off, very nice. So where is the whole in my logic?

Well Thundermane since you asked...

"Am I a gamer? I believe so.", "But in your opinion, I'm not a real gamer, am I? Not even if my marriage is about to suffer because of it."

Allowing your marriage to suffer because of it doesn't make you a gamer but it surely makes you a jerk. Family should always come first, you have a promise to it not games.

"I'm not a real gamer because I don't make a 'commitment to the gaming market' by buying every release a publisher makes." Ummm where did I ever say that you have to buy every release at?

"Because I can't afford it." Ummm try PS1 or 2 or XBOX

"Because I don't OC." Where did I ever say you had to OC to be a gamer?

"I'd like to say more" Well if it's anything like the above, why comes to mind? You take wrods out of context and then add in words never there.

"Clearly no amount of reasoning will get to you" Ummm why are you trying to get to me. "Agree to Disagree" is just that, it means you end with your view and I end with mine and others end with their. Why must I think like you? I didn't ask anyone to think like me... I'm not trying to get to anyone...

Look you come, trade thoughts, facts as much as possible and then settle in the end on your own opinion and understanding. hopefully something is covered that makes you learn, think, teach, grow and explore.

There are right and wrong answers on facts not opinions...

Dave, what do African Americans have to do with the discussion?
I am completely mistafied as to why they were even mentioned.
Please don't get me wrong, I am not predjudiced against them it's just your statement made no sense to me.

Hi guys,
Maybe a little irrelevant, but not only the gamers require bleeding edge performance from their systems.
In fact, I'm a programmer and for me, a 1000 RPM Raptor is a must. I need a fast memory interface. I don't use server or workstation class computer, but it should be dependable.
If at the end of the day you need to checkout-compile-check in a 1.5 million line of code program, you need a fast system.
I don't need the bleeding edge graphics card, in fact an MX 440 works perfect for me. (Well now it's a X1200, as MX440 isn't available for PCI-X)
I need a system which can transfer huge amounts of data to and from the memory quickly. I need a system which can transfer data from and to hard disk quickly. This CPU is a good option for me. It works at the full bandwidth of the memory, and it speeds up my work considerably.
Overclocking doesn't help much: If I cannot feed the fast CPU with numbers to crunch, it's executing NOP(No operation)s while it's waiting for data.
So guys, OK, you gamers are a big market, I appreciate. But there are some "other" people who use the same technology as you use for different purposes. And a product which isn't of your interest may be theirs.
This was my 2 cents.

Ruger45, this series of CPUs are named "Black" i.e., generally speaking in literal English Language as far as I know, it means African; and for a citizen of USA, it means African-American. (There are many more words to name the race, but most of them are rather rude, and I don't want to be labeled as "racist" by even at least giving examples)

Personally I'm about to buy this 6400 but thinking about overclocking it is not an option cause paying $240 for one this to start overclocking it, is risking your money and your cpu life-time.

My Black Edition is on order...and I'll be shootin' it up in "no time"....pumped Mike

[I just received mine. It works. It's notably faster than lesser versions. But, it's not the end-all be-all. :) -Rick]

i play alot of CS 1.6 and dota but i have a crappy system.. am i considered a true gamer?.. haha.. just wanted to know